Topic: Rob Macklem's ponderings on Louie Simmons and stuff

[Don Weideman]

Originally posted on GoHeavy 7-19-05
Rob Macklem's ponderings on Louie Simmons and stuff

It really amazes me that Louie Simmonds is given any press time on this forum. He's given his advice in the article "What if I trained Olympic lifters". Based on that information IMO its like asking a swim coach for advice on how to be a better football player. Louies methods might have a place in Olympic lifting of the 1950's. But I'm afraid those days are long gone,the sport has evolved. It is no longer the sport of the circus strongman.

Quite a feat to be an expert in both sports seeing how the biomechanics have virtually nothing in common, especially if Louie has never trained an Olympic lifter to either national or international prominence. The tone of his original article was more than a little condescending. Although I've since learned that he wrote the article for patriotic reasons (and not ego), that he was unhappy with the US rankings in the world. He’s however got some answers for the ailing US Olympic lifters. Louie has taken concepts FROM Olympic lifting and applied them successfully in his sport, obviously he’s researched the subject well and is to congratulated for his innovative methods. I listened to Glen Pendlays audio conversation on training and perhaps I shouldn't get on Louies case, maybe he's just a well meaning guy. But in my estimation he provides misinformation.But because of the differences in the sports(and they are huge) it doesn’t follow that because his powerlifters are successful with a particular training method that this method will bring success in our sport. If for example he has proof that doing a particular program will make me a better Olympic lifter I’m interested. But with a critical eye. Does it make sense?Louie seems to intimate that we don’t know how to train for our sport. (On the rewrite of this commentary...he actually may have a point because Bud Charniga and Artie Drechsler writings get zero press coverage on this forum. )These guys know about 1000 X more than Louie about what it takes to be successful in OL. Problem is very few people are listening. Charniga's articles are IMO the best descriptions of technical nuances of Olympic lifting ever written. Do google search for " sportivny press" and the click articles.I'd far rather spend my time searching out how Ivan Grikurovi coached Kaki Kakhiashvili to 4 gold medals. Or reading a 320 page dissertation " The problems of the weightlifter training in childhood and Adolescence". Or finding out how Maria Urrutia COL trained the month before her gold medal win. This information is available. The application of this material is eminently more useful (IMO).

I've disagreed with most of his statements. From the outset I will say I’ve always been a fan of the Russian system, I feel it holds a lot of answers (not all of them), its fairly well mapped out how a beginner transcends the rank to master of sport and beyond. Personally I'd use this approach to get a lifter to the master of sport qualification. I don't think I need to reinvent the wheel. After which time the waters become infinitely more muddied as to what approach to take.The soviet republics still crank out lifters consistently (unlike the Bulgars of late). I see a lot of inconsistencies with the Bulgarian system, which seems to be very tightly controlled when they're lifting in Sofia. But seems to change somewhat when they experience the freedom of lifting for another country. Also see Bud's report on the last few training days of the Bulgarians at Jr Europeans . Very confusing.I've tried to collect all info since the 70’s, after all, they are the big players in the world of wt lifting. The bulgarian system has changed dramatically since 1974. The current Bulgarian systems seems to be the info which some lifters are quickly subscribing to (if you follow it EXACTLY you’d better have daily medical care physio, massage, Dr’s, blood testing, and some say a hospital bed at your instant disposal cause you’re going to need it.) For sure the Bulgarians have made important inovations that need to be used. Whether they can be "modified/Americanized" and placed into training regimes remains to be seen. But I'm not sure I understand how if x + y + z = the winning Bulgarian system and that if you dilute either x, y or z that it'll still give you a winning system.
Feel free to agree or disagree. Feel free to use chains and bands. For the record ,I have no credentials. But IMO if you followed his recommendations US lifting would go even further behind.
What if I trained Olympic weightlifters
Louie Simmons
"In 1968 Jan Talts of the USSR said his training consisted of 90% power work and 10% actual competitive lifts. By doing this, he became one of the greatest lifters of all time.

MY comment>All the time? His training is probably indicative of the soviet system in which in a preparation period the ratio is 80-20 and the competition period its 60-40 or similiar ratios. Where would the other world powers in OUR sport like Bulgaria fit in this scheme?Basically polar opposites. Greatest lifter?HE Got beat at the 1968 Olympics by Kangasniemi FIN. He got beat in 1969 Worlds by an American!!(Bednarski) who trained diametrically opposite. see below. Neither lifter who beat him followed this scheme.
In my bid to find out exactly how Talts trained I got a book on Talts published in Estonian. Grin, I had great plans to try and translate part of it using Babelfish or similiar program. It was only when I got the book that I realized Estonian isn't Russian. Duh.

I recall him moving up to 110 kg. (actual weight roughly 100 kg.) and soundly defeating Bob Bednarski at the 1970 World Championships in Columbus, Ohio. If this system worked for him, why not me? Thus by using the training of the Soviets and modifying the special exercises to fit into powerlifting, I have developed the strongest power club in the world.

MY comment>What the Russians did in 1968 has little relevance now, it’s a different sport with the press gone the sport and training programs have changed. Yes Talts beat Bednarski in 1970, however in 1969 Bednarski took the world title on a tie. In 1968 Bednarski C&J 486 weighing about 250 Lbs, remember it was 1970 before Alexeev CJ 500lbs weighing 340lbs? Anyway I’m guessing Bednarski never squatted 700 Lbs to do his 486 CJ.Bob was coached by Joe Mills who didn’t much believe in the mythical powers of the squat or assistance exercises for that matter increasing the Olympic lifts, Joe’s programs were drill the competitive lifts very much like the Bulgarians (less intensity however).I didn’t believe in all Joe Mills philosophy, but that’s not really important, his lifters believed in him. We all know of the great Paul Anderson’s squatting ability 1000 to 1200 lbs yet I don’t think he ever officially cleaned over 470 lbs.There is an argument that when he made his huge squats he wasn’t actively doing C&J. Doug hepburn a huge squatter with not one weak muscle in his entire body, a man who push pressed close to 500lbs in the 1950’s never officially C&J over 400 lbs.The great American lifter Russ Knipp squatted 500 Lbs for 10 yet never did over 400 Lbs in the C&J. The point is a huge squat or prodigious strength doesn’t necessarily translate into big Olympic lifts. In the same way a huge deadlift has no relation to the clean. I won’t bore you with any more examples, you get the picture.I’m all for squats, always have been.it is one of the key assistance exercises, however there are medals for this lift on our competitive platform and it won’t guarantee huge platform lifts. If only the equation was that simple.

Some of the great lifters he mentioned Knipp and Pickett were big pressers, their press being very close to the CJ. In the 2 lift contest they were totally out of the picture. The massively big chested big armed lifter was supplanted by the the leaner fast twitch specialist.In our sport there is no room for showy non functional muscle. One only has to look at Boevski 69kg (my candidate for best lifter at 2000 games) he hardly looks like a lifter and all his lifts seemed effortless, all on a bad knee. I commented to an expert (who doesn’t seem to be used by US Federation at all) How does he do it? “The Bulgarians are masters at getting everything from the muscles that are used in the lifts.”
Massive hypertrophy is avoided, it is a sport of relative strength where body wt is a factor.There are some exceptions from time to time generally in the heavier weight classes ie Tavakoli 105 kg.

In the United States, Olympic lifters have the Olympic Training Center, a national coach, and money in their budget. In fact, the Olympic lifter has everything that a powerlifter does not, yet the United States powerlifters rule the world, while our Olympic lifter brothers drag up the rear at international meets.

MY comment>I think the statement is a non sequiter(An inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises or evidence.)Actually Louie makes no specific conclusion, just the interfence that we don't know what the f... we're doing. Looks like it might have something to do with strong leadership at the top and and an infrastructure that has everyone on side and working towards the same goal.Why the US doesn’t produce champions in our sport isn’t a function of coaching or training philosophy. Rather early selection of the best suited to our sport at an early age and train them without any outside distractions, and having coaches at the right time and place. All champions in our sport are groomed from an early age 9-10 yrs old. Its also a competition marketplace for attractings kids into your sport. To be successful you've got to attract them young (thats what are competitors are doing...there is no other choice). If you get them at 16 or 17 yrs old its too late.
I get the impression that Abadjiev was lord and master his way or the highway(iron fist), in the US lawyers would be involved. One can't be too optimistic with USW when they let Artie go. (John Thrush is just as capable however).
You could also argue that in other countries sport federations don’t punish their lifters for sport enhancing drugs, they are given a drug test to make sure they are clean before the test event! One wonders what the success of the Westside club would be if there was random testing of their lifters (no notice) 6-12 times per year. There are lots of other reasons, ask any high ranked US coach. They wouldn’t agree its because they don’t know how to train lifters.
The question and about why the US does so badly never seems to get in the open. A similiar problem occuried in swimming in Canada after an abismal failure in Athens 2004, I'm not sure what the outcome of the meeting of minds was. ........I actually found the report it makes for very interesting reading, maybe USW can make use of it. They take failure very seriously. See

http://www.swimming.ca/app/DocRepository/18/coaches/technicalreview.pdf

I ask you, how can this be? Olympic lifters have a lot of excuses, none valid. This brings me to the title "What if" I trained Olympic Lifters?

If I were an Olympic lifting coach, I would first teach how one should train. A major mistake is doing the two lifts too often.
MY comment>Pretty comical,Better speak to the Bulgarians, Greeks, they are dominate in our sport, they must be doing something wrong. To say nothing of virtually every other country.

Good training requires variety.
MY comment>Absolutely, Medvedev lists over 100. Almost all are variations of 6 core exercise (tempo, position, combo movement, ect). There really is no need to add remedial (muscle isolating exercises). However his compatriot Robert Roman had a different view and said many years ago that in the future training would consist of 3 exercises: snatch, CJ and squat. Then of course there is the master Abadjiev who basically has the same 3 lift philosophy. IMO variety is for the beginning wt lifter.

It goes considerably on, but I won't bore you with a continuation of my rebutals again.

Sorry for the rant...I like to think of it as ponderings



Another great post from Rob

Don

[John Thrush]

It's my pleasure to say I know Rob from back in the dark ages when we were both young and capable lifters.  He is one of most thoughtful and well reasoned people I know in weightlifting.  Although he has chosen not to be formally involved in any leadership positions in the sport, he contributes a lot, I think, by logical and detached observations that may help the rest of us think a little more clearly about the sport we all love.  I always enjoy reading what he has to say because I know it will be cogent and worthwhile.

John T.

[John Thrush]

As an addendum, I have to say this about Louis Simmons.  

I don't know the man at all and I can't really say I know comprehensively what his methods are, but I do know something about what it takes to coach Olympic weightlifting.  It seems to me that he lacks any kind of realistic perspective about what it really takes to do that and that his simplistic view of using powerlifting methods to "put U.S. lifting at the top" implies some special insights that I don't think he has, and which is also demeaning to an awful lot of really qualified and capable coaches who, I suspect, would coach the pants off of Louie head to head in weightlifting, all things being equal.

As Rob said, the key is identifying the talent early and providing the proper coaching early.  If that happens, we have a chance to succeed.  The methods for training lifters are already evident.  There are no secrets out there.  Just intelligent application of sound methods.  But you have to have the "horses" and they have to be willing to "drink the water".

John T.

[lylemcdonald]

While Louie is certainly one of (if not THE) most innovative coaches in PL, some things to remember

a. His guys mainly dominate in a fed that is known for allowing ludicrous gear and passing questionable lifts.  His claims of X 900 lb squatters and Y 700+ lb benchers is questionable considering this.  They are strong as all get out, don't get me wrong, but gear and changing rules (high squats, unpaused benches) are elevating the numbers.   Also consider that, until recently with the advent of supersuits that don't suck, his guy's DL results have been less than stellar.  Does his training method only work for squat/bench but not DL for some reason?  Of course not.

b. Which is point b, he's come up with a system that maximizes gear use in a specific federation.  His lifitng and training techniques have been developed to maximize the gear.  Sitting back in the squat, Jim Wendler wrote ina  recent article that this prestretches the squat suit straps.  The wide stance, feet pushed out only works if you have supertights to keep your hips from exploding.  Bench shirts make the start of the bench irrelevant, you only need to work midrange and lockout.   I suspect that even their DL technique (with bar out from the shins,back rounded and levering it up) is mainly because DL suits don't allow one to get into a proper clean DL position.

If you look at raw lifting numbers in PL, they have increased only slightly in recent years despite all of this supposed improvement in training techniques.  

Most lift number increases are from gear and gear alone.  Guys are literally getting 100-200 lbs out of super tight bench shirts (and having to get cut out of them after the meet) and we are now seeing 1000+ benches attempted when the DL (where gear does little) hang at like 800 lbs.  Things like the monolift and changing rules (as above) are elevating numbers but are the guys really stronger?  I'd say, not by much.

c. The Metal Militia guys (bench specialists) are absolutely demolishing the bench press records in a fairly different way than WSBB (they do two max effort days and no speed work for the most part).  They do a lot of shirted competition work in addition to assitance stuff (various board presses to work midrange and lockout).  

d. I've seen others complain that the lack of heavy competition work in the Westside system leave them unprepared to step under the bar at competition time.  And while there's no doubt taht the Russians took variety to a new level when it came to OL, they certainly did heavy competition movements during the training cycle. Simmons seems to pick and choose his examples to defend his interpretation of Russian training ideas.

e. Relative to something like OL, PL is about as technical as tying your shoes.  Is their technique involved?  Sure.  But I've known guys who can go to a competition and set PR's in PL having not done any competition movements at all.  Between gear and being able to muscle up the PL's, you don't need the constant technical repetition that you'd need for something like OL.

Lyle

[glennpendlay]

i have gotten sort of a "reputation" of likeing louies methods i guess.  i would like to clarify some things that some people i talk a lot to probably know but some others dont.

first, i know and like louie and consider him a friend, not a close personal friend, but still a friend.  most of this is based off of things having nothing to do with OL and most of it pre-dates my involvement in OL.  my likeing the guy has nothing really to do with my agreement or disagreement with his training philosophies.  lou has helped me a lot and has even financially helped our weightlifting team, people who are freinds and who help you when they dont need to and will never get anything out of it deserve to be stood up for.

second, i think that most of the criticism of louies methods come from people who dont know what the hell they are talking about.  they have very, very distorted ideas of the westside system, what it is and how it works.  the content of their criticisms displays this.  if you are going to attack someone, do it intelligently.  like the recent "conversation" i had with someone on goheavy about this, when someone attacks lou or westside for completely ridiculous reasons, i really feel the need to set the record straight.  

third, i think the whole westside system has a lot going for it for general athletics...  the concentration of fast and explosive movement, the active recovery workouts, things like this i think can and have been adopted either because of lou in some sports and on some teams, or far before him in other situations.  if i was training a football player, i believe i would find much of value in the westside system.  it is a system that really, really emphasises explosive strength...  and personally i think a pairing of parts of the westside training style with cleans and OL derived movements would be about the best training for a lot of sports that i could think of.

fourth...  lou is a good guy.  hes come off as an ass a couple of times to the OL community.  but lou is a guy who speaks what he is thinking, doesnt stop to consider what people will think all that much, and is happy to admit when he is wrong if that proves to be the case.  i think lou is a little incredulous about the reaction to a couple of his OL type articles...  i mean, who is he, a powerlifting guy, who said what he thinks about american OLing, and what the hell should we care?  i dont think he would care much if an OL guy wrote an article about how he would train a powerlifters squat to come in and dominate PLing.  

and last...  i DONT think american OLers should train like powerlifters.  i DO think the lou has some real knowledge about getting stronger, and that is a big part of OLing.  i have listened to him before and will again, but the guy is not an OL coach.  hed be the first to admit that.  i know how the rest of the world trains, how the guys train that we are trying to beat, or at least i know as much as any of the rest of us, basically what we see or hear or read about it.  ive gotten emails from people asking about how using powerlifting training for OL is working out and if that is how donny got so good so fast.  if my defense of louie makes people think that i copy his methods or mirror his thoughts, then that is wrong.

for the record, we train in a manner that is based mainly off copying the training and ideas of a number of american coaches who helped me one way or another and got me pointed in the right direction over the past few years.  we squat and do snatch and clean and jerk on mondays, wednesdays, and fridays, and on tuesdays, thursdays, and saturdays we do some variation of the competitive lifts, or maybe lighter competitive lifts depending on the time of the competitive year.  there are some influences from westside...  we use a reverse hyper machine 3 days a week, which i think is a wonderfull machine.  one of our squat days is a "speed" day with lighter, but very fast and explosive squats.  some of our lifters tend to rotate through exercises on the tue, thur, and saturday workouts, going heavy on them but changing all the time.  things like drop snatches, overhead squats, powercleans, hang snatches, muscle snatches, etc, etc, etc...  

none of this is revolutionary, i dont think its that controversial.

[Craig Cheek]

As a college strength coach, I see merit in both OL and some of Louie's methods. We place a strong emphasis on the OL and variations, but do not lose sight that we are training collegiate athletes of various sports and not OL. The problem I originally had with Louie Simmons' stuff is that most of his early article were basically him beating his chest about how he has "x" amount of 700lb benchers and "x" amount of 900lb squatters. Once I read through all the self-promotion I did see some use for some of his techniques with my programming.

I also believe (after talking with some competitive PL's) that there is more to the West Side method than top notch gear and training methodologies. One of his disciples bragged about training only the bench press 1 day per week (every sunday) for a year after a 3 year lay off and coming back stronger than he was before the layoff. with only one day/week of training? you tell me.

[Joe Hanson]

I have Bud's Russian stuff, Roman Verkhoshansky, etc. I've surveyed them (don't have the time to break them down word by word) and I still don't see where Louie came up with his training.

Does anyone have an outline or abstract describing it?  At AAU J.O's I listened to a PL say that Power Cleans were irrelevant for football and that he got all his stuff from Roman- just like Louie.  I don't have my library next to me but isn't Roman primarliy about technique?
 
If Glenn likes Louie Simmons, I'm willing to check it out.  I'm not the sharpest tack in the box but could use some help figuring out what Louie's stuff is and where in the heck does he find it in the Russian stuff?

Joe

[Damon Davis]

It seems that everyone is also forgetting one VERY important point about Louies guys and the application of his training methods...

THEY COMPETE IN A FEDERATION THAT DOES NOT DRUG TEST.

Everyone who reads LS stuff has to realize that they get results not only through their training methods, but also through pharmeceuticals. That has never been hidden. How can drug free athletes recover on a program made for guys on the gas?

Most of his gusy look like bloated and puffy fish that are about to explode. So if Louie did train olympic lifters, he'd have to remember that it is a drug free sport first and foremost.