Topic: Auxillary Lifts

[TheRedReaper]

Are you really too fatigued on Thursday even after having Wednesday off? I discovered something odd, you know - for my front squat, I actually have the most power on the second day in a row of training, in the morning session. I have more power on this day than I do on the first day, after having just taken a day off. And even training heavy weight front squats twice a day for 2 days in a row again and again, I never get so fatigued as to the point I cannot make my rep maxes. It's at the point where if I want to add extra amounts of reps to my sets, I do it the first time on the second day, morning session, training. This may just be me, however.
 
Can I ask, you may feel tired, but have you actually tried training anyway? And just seeing if you actually can or cannot get through a heavy session?

[Andy Dick]

I do back squat because I am able to push more weight with back squat.  I am very fatigued by Thursday, usually Wednesday I am really tight, sore, and my legs and body feel very tired like they have not even recovered.  By Thursday I am feeling better, still tight, but my legs are still fatigued, I work up to about 70% of my 1 RM and it still feels heavier than it should.  Remember as of right now I work 11 hour days then lift, that is with trying to get a 45 min nap in my car during my lunch break.  At night I am lucky if I can get in bed by 10pm and am up again at about 5:55am.  My job encompasses being on my feet a great deal especially if we are busy.  Not to mention the stress of being constantly rushed.

[TheRedReaper]

Fatigue I think is a result of poor planning. I get fatigued too, but only in the final session before my day off. By the time I train again, it is gone.
 
Can I ask, exact how many reps are you doing? Can you give me a show.
 
Doing reps causes fatigue, you know. I get a lot more tired from doing, say, 5 sets of 3 reps at my 80% of 1RM, than I do if I did 5 sets of 1 rep at 98% of my rep max. This is why I like training heavy weight, because I can train more frequent.
 
It may sound odd. And it may just be me - what works for me might not work for you.
 
I used to train so hard in one day, with lots of sets and ****loads of reps, and I'd be so tired I could not train again for 2 or 3 more days. That was dumb, I think. My new philosophy is - live to train another day.
 
So here is an example. I was training the bench press, and I figured I'd train it the same as the front squat. I did not consider I should approach the two lifts differently. But the problem was, doing 5 sets of bench press in the morning on the first day of training, and then same again in the arvo, meant I had no power left at all for the next day. Literally, I could not even unrack my 95% of 1RM, let alone lift it. Eventually I realized I should just take what I was doing on the first day, and then halve it, so I could train the rest the next day. It worked.
 
Here is the pattern I came up with (it's all done at a rep of about 98% of 1RM - there are no warm up sets as they create fatigue):
 
Day 1 morn: 1
Day 1 arvo: 1
Day 2 morn: 1
Day 2 arvo: 1
Day 3 rest
 
Day 1 morn: 1, 1
Day 1 arvo: 1
Day 2 morn: 1, 1
Day 2 arvo: 1
Day 3 rest
 
Day 1 morn: 1, 1
Day 1 arvo: 1, 1
Day 2 morn: 1, 1
Day 2 arvo: 1, 1
Day 3 rest
 
Day 1 morn: 1, 1, 1
Day 1 arvo: 1, 1
Day 2 morn: 1, 1, 1
Day 2 arvo: 1, 1
Day 3 rest
 
Day 1 morn: 2, 1, 1
Day 1 arvo: 1, 1
Day 2 morn: 2, 1, 1
Day 2 arvo: 1, 1
Day 3 rest
 
Day 1 morn: 2, 1, 1
Day 1 arvo: 1, 1, 1
Day 2 morn: 2, 1, 1
Day 2 arvo: 1, 1, 1
Day 3 rest

 
Increase weight by 5 kilo
Day 1 morn: 1
Day 1 arvo: 1
Day 2 morn: 1
Day 2 arvo: 1
Day 3 rest
 
You can see I conserve my strength so I can get a consistent and predictible pattern through out. The bench press, I found, responds well to rest and is sensative to fatigue. Where as the front squat responds poorly to rest and is less effected by fatigue. My arms are never tired, but they are never over worked, either. And I am increasing my bench press right now at about 5 kilo per 3 weeks. This won't last for forever (and I'm still perfecting the pattern, really), but eventually I'll develop a new, similar pattern, based on what I've learned, and keep on going.
 
There are a lot of ways of doing things. But in my experience, the guys who train constantly 5 sets of 5 reps in 5 different lifts per session are the ones who train the least and get the most tired. Whilst people training twice a day most days and doing heavy lifts consistently throughout, they often tend to do 2 - 5 sets of 1 - 2 reps at heavier weights and complain a lot less...
 
Anyway, make of all this what you will. My point is, have you considered taking what you do in your monday session (which you said was hardest and most fatigueing), and cutting it back a bit so that you can do more hard training more progressively through out the week? So if you do back squat, 5x5, on your monday session, my advice is cut that down to 2x2 reps at a much heavier weight so you can get less fatigued and train the back squat like this EVERY SESSION (though you ought to be able to do 3x2 at the back squat every session, really).
 
I find the body/lifts responds better to frequent training throughout the week rather than excessive training on a single session. I would do your main lifts every time you train, but just do them less times and heavier.
 
The nervous system is also responsive to frequent training - the nervous system REMEMBERS how to lift heavy weight, even if your muscles don't want to do it, it will drive them through. If you familiarize yourself with lifting at heavier weights and doing the lifts nearly daily instead of weekly, you will begin to feel much more comfortable under them.
 
Anyhow, I am an intermediate lifter, so take what you will from my own research. I like to think I'm good at figuring these things out, however. I've also been doing martial arts since was 14, so am not new to sport training in general.
 
The real point I'm getting at is about doing less on monday so you can do more throughout the week, and doing your main lifts every time you train. albeit less. Training too much is as bad as training not enough. Learn to use your fatigue with balance. Always push at it's limits, but never cross that line to exhaustion.
 
Let me know about your rep totals.

[TheRedReaper]

When I say no warm up sets, I still mean you should warm up, btw. Stretching, weightless squats or a few push ups, rolling the joints about, twisting the spine left to right, so on. Just nothing that creates any real fatigue.
 
Here is quote:
 
If the stress is so overwhelming that you cannot recover from it in time to apply more of it in a timeframe which permits accumulated adaptation, it is useless as a beneficial tool that drives progress.
- Mark Rippetoe
 
Although I don't agree with Mark's view on training frequency, the quote is spot on. The simple point is if fatigue from previous training is gimping you in your current session, you overdid it last time. Under this theory, you can develop a formula that will have you doing your nigh rep max in all your important lifts twice a day most every day.

[Andy Dick]

Here is a snapshot for the week:
 
Monday
Snatch 3x3 at 84%
C&J worked up to 90% for 2 sets of 1
 
Tuesday
Snatch 3x3 worked up fo 80%
Back Squat 3x3 80% of 125% of max clean and jerk
Hand stand push-ups 3x5
 
Wednesday
Off
 
Thursday
Clean 70% 3x3
Snatch Pull 70% 3x3
 
Friday
Jerk 3x3 80%
Clean Pulls 3x3 80%
 
Saturday
Front squat 3x3 80%
Shoulder press 3x3 80%
Pull-ups 3x5
 
I feel one light, especiall in lew of my long work week is acceptable

[TheRedReaper]

Well why did you say monday was your hard day? It looks the same.
 
I do not see any reason why you should suffer any fatigue at all with that program... how old are you?

[Andy Dick]

Monday has a emphasis of which lift is the heavy lift. 90% each week I push it 2.5kg.  Next week it is snatch.  The rest of the moderate days are 10% less.  Light day is always 70%. I am 30.  As the gap gets closer to my 1RM I am more and more fatigued the following days.

[TheRedReaper]

But above you have listed only work sets, right? What about warm up sets? Are you doing many? How heavy and how many reps is an average warm up set?
 
Here's a couple more things I was reading today, again Mark Rippetoe
 
Progressive training within the context of the General Adaptation Syndrome requires that an increase in training load be applied as soon as it is apparent that recovery has occurred. Continued use of the initial, adapted-to load will not induce any disruption of homeostasis and therefore cannot lead to further progress. Using the same training load after adaptation has occurred is counter to effective coaching practice if performance or fitness improvement is the goal.
 
For the intermediate and advanced trainee it is not expected nor desired that each workout begin free from fatigue. If an intermediate, advanced, or elite trainee is persistently fatigue free, the loading scheme is not rigorous enough to induce homeostatic disruption and adaptation. In fact, if an athlete is chronically fatigue-free, he is by definition still a novice.
 
The first paragraph is basically why I like to stay close to my rep max. When you train too far below it, you are not pushing your body to adapt and move forward. Though, Mark does it a bit differently. He encourages a lot of 5x5 sets. But the important thing is these sets are always difficult and he is always increasing the weight. I train less reps but higher weight, though it is the same concept - adapt and move forward in weight, then adapt to that weight and move forward again.
 
I suppose you're doing that, however. But can I ask you, even when you're only training at 80%, is the final rep in a set of 3 difficult to the point where you sometimes drop it or have poor technique? Or is it fairly comfortable?
 
The second paragraph is important. You were saying about fatigue, but I think a little stiffness is good, so long as it does not prevent you from achieving what you want to achieve. Stiffness and feeling well worked means you're pushing yourself to the highest level. Just be careful you don't go over the top. What i wanted to point out though, was if you were avoiding training at a higher % of your rep max because you will drop the bar too often if you did that due to fatiuge, or if you are simply not trying to lift when fatigued because you just don't want to? If it is the latter, that is why I posted that quote.