Topic: News: CAIR Seeks Hijab Rights for Banned Georgia Muslim Woman Weightlifter

[Shaun Le Conte]

doesnt that religon support honor violence? ..another bleeding heart  muslim pullin out the religon card

Let's just focus on whether the rules are as they are for good reason or if there can be some accommodation. Discussion of the beliefs of a particular religion can go in the off-topic section.

[Andy Dick]

I am going to play devils advocate here and throw out a few things.  I haven't made a decision on the topic yet.

In the article Chris posted it quotes her saying:

"Abdullah said she covered her body during those local competitions and met no resistance from weightlifting officials.  But USA Weightlifting follows rules set by the International Weightlifting Federation, which says athlete's outfits must be close-fitting, have no collar and  must not cover  the elbows and knees."

This should not be valid to back her point.  Because a local competition does not fully abide by the rules (which most should abide by all USAW rules if they are a sanctioned meet) does not make it ok to do something that is conter to the rules.  I have been at meets that were local where kids were lifting in shorts and a t-shirt.  It never mattered to me because they were not lifting national level weights but I always just thought in my head once they wanted to move to a national level comp. that thier attire would have to change.  I knew it was against the rules but I did not care to make a big deal about it since it was an unimportant meet.

I also find fault with her argument in essence saying that "I should not be discriminated for lifting because of how I dress for my faith."  I believe faith is very important to many people but to allow that aspect to be something that will allow her to change the rules or circumvent them should not occur.  This is opening a can of worms for all sorts of qwerky rule changes and exploitation of the rules by those who do not wish to follow a certain rule.  Here is an example, if this gets passed where does it end?  Muslims must say prayer a certain number of times a day at a certain time; what happens if she is at a competition and between her second and third attempt is her prayer time?  Can she stop and pray (resulting in exceeding her time to lift and missing the final attempt) then come back and say you can't disqualify my attempt because of my faith?  I know this is a poor example, but seeing if this example is to occur do you see how people will seek to exploit that rule or in her case how some will seek to exploit the clothing rule.

The other thing about how the rules are set (and this was my interpretation so I may be wrong) but I thought one of the reasons the lifting attire was set as they are in the rule book was to discourage cheating.  IE people using extra garments to cover up garments, wraps, tape jobs, etc. that might aid in lifting or in other words cheat.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

The Moslems (and the Amish) are also against government insurance (scams). If they bankrupt the usaw, I'm rooting for them. I could certainly offer some good arguments for their case, though I need to think it through first more before I decide where I stand.

[TCooper]

Some of the comments posted are absolutely asinine so I feel obligated to post a few remarks.  I know Kulsoom personally and lift with her in the gym between 5 and 7 days a week so I am fairly familiar with her thoughts and beliefs on competing.  She is not looking to compete in gown for one.  She is looking for a reasonable solution.  This would entail something similar to semi tight skins or under armor pants, a semi loosely fitting singlet, a TIGHT under armour shirt so it would hug the skin and lockout would be able to be determined and her head scarf.  So I understand there may be issues with this attire as well and I welcome educated argument, but she is not trying to wear a gown or dress.  She would not wear any knee sleeves and would allow the technical director to verify there was no reinforcement in the joint areas.

Also, the comment about her needing to pray during her lift, absolutely ridiculous.  She wants to compete like any other woman but cannot show her knees and elbows.  I understand if you have an educated argument against her proposal, but do not exaggerate something that you know little about.  She does not want money she wants the right to compete, and the opportunity to meet each of you and build relationships and network.  I know in weightlifting one of my favorite parts of competing is the camaraderie that comes along with knowing other athletes.  She is a very light-hearted genuine person who I enjoy lifting and laughing with.

Something else that was brought up is her inability to weigh in and this is absolutely not true.  As long as a woman weighs her in she would be able to follow standard protocol.  So let's get back on topic and try to understand the actual proposal at hand.

[Shaun Le Conte]

Some of the comments posted are absolutely asinine so I feel obligated to post a few remarks.  I know Kulsoom personally and lift with her in the gym between 5 and 7 days a week so I am fairly familiar with her thoughts and beliefs on competing.  She is not looking to compete in gown for one.  She is looking for a reasonable solution.  This would entail something similar to semi tight skins or under armor pants, a semi loosely fitting singlet, a TIGHT under armour shirt so it would hug the skin and lockout would be able to be determined and her head scarf.  So I understand there may be issues with this attire as well and I welcome educated argument, but she is not trying to wear a gown or dress. 

I have never seen her before TCooper and there was no picture in the first article. The article said she wanted to wear modest Islamic attire covering everything except her hands, face and feet. I live in an Islamic country and I see what modest Islamic attire is. The article wasn't clear enough. No need to throw insults. I didn't insult anyone and generally have been supportive of change in my replies.

[TCooper]

I as well did not mean to insult anyone, your replies were on topic.  I wanted to clarify the proposal, but some other comments I do feel were out of left field.  Here is a URL in which you can find some media of her training.   

http://www.liftingcovered.com/media/ 

What she is wearing in these pictures are currently just what she trains in.  This is not necessarily her proposal, and most of these pictures are from her first two or three meets in which she was dressing most modestly.  Her proposal can be seen on http://www.liftingcovered.com/faq/ in which she states that she would like to:

"Option: I could wear a singlet, but get one that is looser, not skin tight, and underneath wear pants and the Under armor shirt with head scarf.  The IWF rules state collarless, but my head scarf does not give me an advantage over other competitors."

Basically as I described before semi loose under armour pants, semi loose singlet, tight under armour shirt, and head scarf....

Also, like I said before there could very well be issues with this proposal, but I at least want everyone to fairly make a judgement with real knowledge of her actually desires.


At the very least I see no reason that she would not be able to lift as an extra.  Even if her total didn't place her she would still be allowed to show her hard work on the platform.  There have been plenty of times when lifters have been able to lift as extras for various reasons in the past, but when she asked for this opportunity it was also shot down.

 

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Do you believe that a "religious" belief is more important than someone's philosophy and ethics? For instance, what if a woman said she didn't want to wear a tight-fitting singlet because she thinks its immoral, even though she is an agnostic or atheist? Would you support her "right" to modify the rules to suit her? How about if my philosophy says the snatch is more like figure skating than weightlifting and thus offends my ethics and aesthetic sense of weightlifting? What if I want to skip the snatch, just clean and jerk, and earn my placing-medals based solely on the clean and jerk? Would this be okay? What if I wanted to wear a special uniform that describes my philosophy on it, as part of my philosophy's demand to spread the message? It seems to me, and I haven't necessarily come to a final decision on these issues, that this lifter is trying to use the government's guns, physical force, to change the voluntary actions of others, the way they run their own competitions. While I say she and anyone else have the right to form their own organization and compete the way they wish, and call it whatever they want, like the moslem olympics, I see no reason why she should be able to point guns at the usaw to make them change their rules, at this point. I'm still open-minded on the subject really however, though I think I will be against her efforts if they go to court, despite wishing to see the usaw go bankrupt. The reason I mention court, by the way, is because CAIR seems to focus on such methods.

[Shaun Le Conte]

If there is a change in the rules, I do agree that they should apply to all whether they or religious or not.

I hope the argument against singlets and in favour of modest clothing is successful and this leads to a change in the press-out rule. The only arguments against what she wants to wear are that the officials need to see that elbows are locked and that the elbows are not wrapped. Am I missing something? Do elbow wraps even help? Already the wrists and knees can be wrapped.

Chris I don't think anyone has resorted to government force so far, they've asked the IWF, then the USOC is asking the International Weightlifting Federation. Asking a group to reconsider its rules, especially if the rules have little merit, is a reasonable thing to do.

It would not be reasonable to have to form a parallel organization that is not affiliated with the USOC, with no connection to the International Weightlifting Federation.