Topic: Squat Proportions

[Shaun Le Conte]

Interesting situation Arturo,

In problem 1 of course the 400 kg squatter would make rapid progress but the 200 kg squatter who clean and jerks 150 might improve substantially with a focus on strength building. But, chances are that person B, unexceptional in either aspect, has already spent a great deal of time squatting and cleaning and is less likely to make the level of improvement necessary. I would feel more comfortable betting on pupil A who already has demonstrated considerable ability in a key functional indicator.

However in the case of a novice with neither developed leg strength or established clean & jerk technique I am not sure that first developing prodigious leg strength and then developing weightlifting technique is the right sequence. I am inclined to believe that whatever B was doing was generally the right thing to do.


 

[ViKtoricus]

Interesting situation Arturo,

In problem 1 of course the 400 kg squatter would make rapid progress but the 200 kg squatter who clean and jerks 150 might improve substantially with a focus on strength building. But, chances are that person B, unexceptional in either aspect, has already spent a great deal of time squatting and cleaning and is less likely to make the level of improvement necessary. I would feel more comfortable betting on pupil A who already has demonstrated considerable ability in a key functional indicator.

However in the case of a novice with neither developed leg strength or established clean & jerk technique I am not sure that first developing prodigious leg strength and then developing weightlifting technique is the right sequence. I am inclined to believe that whatever B was doing was generally the right thing to do.

I agree! Plus, I also believe that if you have a case where your athletes are squatting in excess of what is expected of them for their clean+jerk numbers, the training should still be focused on developing both qualities. They should still be pushing up their squat while they are working on their explosiveness and technique.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

I actually wouldn't treat those situations that differently. The strong squatter needs to maintain his strong squats and even improve them while emphasizing technique. So, minor differences in emphasis really. Most diversions from a typical program would be individual based from my view, for things like structural weaknesses, postural problems, injuries, etc.

[Andy Dick]

Bumping this a bit to talk about it.  I also think this can coincide with the "It's not about squatting heavy anymore..." topic.

First a side note...

I hardly train recently but since May 2010 I have almost done no squats (that aren't part of a clean) because my gym does not have squat racks even though

I see to possible options (possibly not realistic): 1. You can go old school Paul Anderson and dig a hole in the ground and squat in there and use the ground as a squat stand.  2.  Would they let you bring some boxes (think lower version of jerk boxes) or the like that you can front squat or squat over?

Now to the point of the post...

Squat will typically be 125-135% of the C&J.

Front squat will typically be 110-120% of the C&J.

The question is do the squats help push the C&J or vise versa or is it a more reciprocal relationship (as in Shaun's case it helps keep the squat high)?  As Chris stated there is a high correlation between squat and C&J.  In my last cycle I kept squats static at 125% of my best C&J ever.  I do not think it helped much keeping it low.  The weight did not really feel challenging and I eventually raised it up to the weight for all 4 sets (for a time, I dropped it back down due to knee soreness coming back).  Also, shouldn't all things being equal perfect or near perfect technique coupled with pushing squats result in constant increases.  I plan on doing a cycle where I am going to focus the majority of time on increasing squat numbers 2 days a week with upper body for 2-3 weeks (Mainly because my wife is 8 months pregnant and I am not going to a meet anytime soon and to hopefully let my knee rest some more).  Then may go back to pushing squat numbers, during my regular workout depending on how my knee feels.

[Andy Dick]

See this I feel it can apply to this discussion:  http://weightliftingexchange.com/smf/index.php?topic=6492.8

Chris would we be able to merge them or should we?

[Shaun Le Conte]

Bumping this a bit to talk about it.  I also think this can coincide with the "It's not about squatting heavy anymore..." topic.

First a side note...

I hardly train recently but since May 2010 I have almost done no squats (that aren't part of a clean) because my gym does not have squat racks even though

I see to possible options (possibly not realistic): 1. You can go old school Paul Anderson and dig a hole in the ground and squat in there and use the ground as a squat stand.  2.  Would they let you bring some boxes (think lower version of jerk boxes) or the like that you can front squat or squat over?

It's been over a year of almost no squatting beyond what I can clean. There is no practical way around it in my situation and I've gotten used to it. I am going to do more bodybuilding this year and quit worrying about snatch, clean and jerk and squats. I may never lift in a meet again.

It's been said that squats drive up the Olympic lifts, provided that the Olympic lifts are performed on a regular schedule with the squats. Well then, squat gains are not a necessary and sufficient condition for improvements in the snatch & cj. There are of course other muscles involved in OL that are not trained well with squats so something has to be done in addition to squats or strength proportions will not be maintained and the relation between squat and OL will weaken for that lifter

[Arturo Gómez]

"squat gains are not a necessary and sufficient condition for improvements in the snatch & cj."This is fundamental for undestanding the process. Sometimes is necessary and sufficient, sometimes is necessary but not sufficient, sometimes is not necessary nor sufficient, and finally sometimes is sufficient but not necessary.
Squat proportion depends of many factors, like age, temperament, anatomy, previous injuries, squat technique and olimpic technique, immediatly or not objectives...
In fact, is an individual index, that must be analized case per case

[Andy Dick]

It's been said that squats drive up the Olympic lifts, provided that the Olympic lifts are performed on a regular schedule with the squats. Well then, squat gains are not a necessary and sufficient condition for improvements in the snatch & cj. There are of course other muscles involved in OL that are not trained well with squats so something has to be done in addition to squats or strength proportions will not be maintained and the relation between squat and OL will weaken for that lifter

Me thinking out loud...

No exercise is going to train the Olympic lifts better than the Olympic lifts themselves.  This is basic specificity principle.  However, I don't think the question is would training squat alone increase OL lifting, but more if we trained OL only no squats would we (for sake of argument) see a 5% increase in OL strength in 1 month or can we elicit a perhaps 7% increase in OL strength if we did OL lifts in conjunction with squatting?  Squats are considered an assistance exercise much like a pull, however with squats we are able to push the weights more because we do not necessarily need to be caught up in rate of force development as in the pulls.  Not to mention how we can continue to stress the muscles past neurological fatigue with the squats because they are not as technically dependent nor require the mentioned RFD.

I feel there is perhaps a value to including the squats otherwise all we would need to do is Snatch and C&J only every workout (barring any assistance to correct muscle imbalance, technique flaws, or the like).  (In my eyes where the waters get muddied from the stuff listed aboe) then the question boils down why do we not deadlift heavy, reminiscant of the pull phase as opposed a PL deadlift?  Perhaps because that section of the pull is taxed during the lifts and pull work where RFD is most important and the squats are able to strengthen the squat up portion where RFD is not as important.