Topic: Knee Pain

[Jim Hooper]

Andy,

Tidits of well-meaning advice based on inadequate observation - we cannot even tell how wide your feet are and what your turnout is -- and best-intentioned guesses are only going to get you so far.

I take it you have a great coach "writing programs" for you, but no on-site coaching.  First, send THAT coach your video (even better, video from the front and a 45 degree angle) and see what HE says.  Failing that,  Google and read everything available by Dan John on the back squat, and view every chapter of "Squat Rx" on You Tube (its a treasure trove of sound information).  Then you will understand the biomechanics of this movement and be better able to diagnose and fix your particular issues.   If at all possible, get "Starting Strength" by Mark Rippetoe, and digest fully the 50+ page chapter on squat mechanics.  Don't do the squat Rippetoe advocates for general strength (a low bar, medium stance squat), but take the biomechanical knowledge in his materials, and apply it to the high-bar Olympic style back squat.  Pay special attention to Rippetoe's teaching on the dreaded "tuck under" phenomenon - the lower spine curling forward at the bottom of the movement.  That's the biggest flaw in you current squat mechanics.

The knee symptoms you describe - also a big problem -- clearly point to an alignment problem - something that is making your quad/patellar tendon pull at an angle, instead of tracking in the groove where it supposed to be working.  Picture a pulley where the applied force makes the rope run up onto the flange of a pulley, instead of staying in the groove.  (Your femur has a groove just like a pulley wheel.)   Its the squatting equivalent of "runner's knee."   Your problems are probably due to either (1) and inefficient stance that forces your legs into unnatural patterns from the get-go, or (2) bowing in or out of your knees at some point(s) in the range of motion, forcing your "pulley rope" to shorten at an angle that pulls it out of the groove.

Even more problematic, your torso angle is erratic, ranging from good to good-morning.   On some reps, your lower spine tucks under (rounds).   Yikes.  On others, your torso is inclined so far forward that the bar is further forward than your toes.   Double yikes.  That suggests your stance (width and/or turnout) and firing sequence is off, and that you have not been taught how to lengthen your glute/ham so that you can go deep without rounding your back.  Fast forward to the solution:  you lengthen your glute and upper ham - which is what allows you to get maximal depth without compromising a rock-solid spine --  by doing squats as low as you can go without rounding your lower back, adapting to the stretch of the movement itself until you can go ATG with a solid spine.

The materials I pointed you to above will give you the knowledge to correct all of these problems - starting with finding the correct stance for you -- and as soon as you get on the right track, it will all come together very quickly.  For a couple of weeks, you'll feel tension in your hip and upper rear thigh, and won't be able to go rock bottom with a tight back (bar to butt).  Gradually -- it only takes 2-3 weeks squatting every other day or so -- you will be able to get rock bottom without losing your back arch, and suddenly squatting will become a wonderful thing.

Its not "bouncing" in the bottom that is your problem - the greatests Olympic lifters ALL bounce out of the hole, including the best one your current program-writer ever coached, who sometimes triple-bounces out of the hole - but rather  getting to the hole with the right mechanics (i.e., locked neutral spine) and the right tension on the right muscle groups (i.e., the hams and quads, which are the only muscles that can, and do, propel you out of the low position, when you are squatting correctly).  In other words, you WANT to catch a little stretch-reflex at the bottom.  Doesn't mean "dive bomb," but its essential to ever lift big weights that you develop a tempo and timing where you are able to use the natural stretch-reflex of your muscles (and at 160kg or more, the harmomics of bar flex).  Developing that ability and tempo to time reversals of direction is part of the art of this sport.

Don't hesitate to experiment with a slightly wider than shoulder width stance, or greater turnout of your feet.  Its obvious, even from the video that you posted, that your femurs are a bit longer than your tibias.  A little more turnout will shorten the effective length (the front-to-back length, viewed from the side) of your femurs, which should help you attain balance with a more erect/vertical torso.  (Don't get carried away - there is no need to even bother with some "sumo" type affair - a stance where your ankles are hip width or a few inches wider will work.)   That adjustment, plus a little turnout - the angle where your legs, from hip joint to ankles seem to "want" to track in a straight line, in the same plane as your shoelaces --, should help you rise with a more erect, stable torso.  Its going to feel tight in the hips at first.  Be insistent, obsessive, and assiduously attentive to maintaining a locked spine, particularly the slight lumbar arch - losing that arch with a tuck-under of the tailbone at the bottom is surrender - it takes all the tension off your posterior chain, which is the exact opposite of the neuromuscular pattern that you should be training an strengthening with the back squat for Olympic lifts or for life in general.

Matt is absolutely right that you should be getting more on the classic lifts with a 150x5 back squat.  Getting these mechanics right, and training the squat that way, will help you apply more of your raw leg and hip strength effectively in the classic lifts.  What you can fudge in a back squat itself, i.e., tucking your tail, losing posterior chain tension, and compensating for with pushing the knees forward and the hips up to retension the system, you cannot fudge in the first pulls or the receiving phase of  a heavy clean without getting out of mechanically efficient pulling positions or dumping the bar.   It is well worth the effort to get the back squat mechanics perfect - its all about maximizing how much hip and leg drive you can apply to a rigid spine.

Hope that helps.  You certainly have no problems that cannot be easily fixed with a few weeks training with the right mechanics in mind.  And once you get it right, you can squat your butt off and it will not hurt anything one bit.  We are made to squat, just as we are made to walk.

[Andy Dick]

I will try to correct these issues.  I have not sent a video to John because the turn around time for him to watch a video is very long.  Plus, he has been dealing with some health issues so hearing back from him or getting a program is difficult so far.  I have kind of been on my own but that has been the issues since I started being so far away.  That is why I posted on here.  I will try to get some video of different squat stances and toe positions and get them posted on here if you are all willing to still help analyze them?

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

I think I gave you my advice before but just in case it is to decrease squatting reps and intensity but to not cease squatting entirely, cut out the stop squats until fully recovered, and treat the symptoms as best you can. With your long frame, bodyweight increases may also be helpful.

[Andy Dick]

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

I have not stop squatted in a long time.  This what I am doing starting today.  Let me see if I can get some feedback on what you all think.  I am going to do the russian squat program, i think you all may be familiar with.  This allows me to squat 3 days a week.  I am using 315 as my 1 RM.  This puts my sets to 250 (i rounded down from 252).  I really focused on great techinque.  I had the other strength coach at the high school I work at watch my form and see if I am rounding my butt over or if my low back is breaking.  He said the squats looked much better than the last time he watched me.  I also put my feet maybe an inch wider then shoulder width and pointed my toes slightly more outward.  There immediately felt much less pressure on my knees.  They were sore while I was warming up today but right now after doing the 6x2 at 250 they actually feel really good.

On squat days I am also going to focus on some hamstring work.  I am going to start with swissball leg curls working to single legs and then transition back to rdls.  I have been doing a lot of rdls since I started lifting again so I want to switch it up a bit.  I am also going to work abs in the form of stabilization and low back work more than hitting the front.  Since I feel my back could use some strength.

As far as olympic lifts I am going to strive to for sure do them saturdays but also work them in when I can if the knee is feeling good during my warm-ups.  If it is sore I am going to lay off of them until I start to work my knee issue out.

Oh PS...I have been heating my knees before every day I do any leg work and I do 2 minutes of jogging or biking to get a sweat going then I foam roll before I start in on warm-up sets.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Make sure your shoes are in good shape also. If you have a different pair of wl shoes, I would switch up for a bit since every pair will shift the load on your body slightly and could relieve the problem.

[Andy Dick]

So far the new workout is going pretty well.  I still have a little knee pain as of today (off day totally).  However, it is less than it was Monday.  I did 6x3 with 250# yesterday really focusing on form, so seeing there is less pain that is a good thing.  I have not done any olympic lifts as of yet because of the presence of some knee pain.  I have 6x2 Friday and hopefully my knee will be pain free and I may try to do the lifts on Saturday.  The hamstring and core program is going pretty well.  Doing the single leg SB leg curls is relly getting my hamstrings to work and the core work I can feel it hitting my low back which is part of the focus. 

[Andy Dick]

So my knee is still a little sore today.  Do you all think I should do as planned and take Saturday off if it is still sore or should I try to do a little oly lifting maybe 3x1 of both lifts?

[Jim Hooper]

A little sore all over, after a hard training session, in a healthy state, is your body's way of saying I'm about to get a little stronger. 

A little sore in a specific joint, after a testing workout, coming back from an injury like yours, is your body's way of saying I need a little more rest.

Take the day off.  Keep gauging it day by day.  Focus on getting to pain free squat mechanics.  You're on the right track.  Don't rush it.