Topic: front squat vs back squat

[kaptain.kayak]

This is of great interest to me. I've written pretty extensively on the superiority of the low bar back squat for general strength training. I posted a lot about it on Starting Strength and one of my articles there was about it.

But then I came around to Glenn Pendlay's arguments (and the generally accepted belief) that WL and athletics in general favor the use of the high bar back squat and the front squat.

BUT upping my low bar squat had a profound effect on both my high bar back squat and front squat. My front squat was highest back when I trained the low bar back squat to exclusion! Days after I low bar squatted 418 with a belt in a USAPL meet (definitely below parallel because it's USAPL) I also front squatted 275. These days I'm a bit weaker and my best front squat recently was a hard 264. So in my experience the low bar back squat brought up the high bar back squat and the front squat. It also had a nearly one-to-one effect on my deadlifts.

Now I'm focusing on WL instead of raw PL. And from what I can tell so far, the lifts with the greatest effects on the classical lifts are...the classical lifts! I'm alternating high bar and front squats, but I can't help but wonder if I wouldn't be better off just using the low bar squat (with a belt) to get stronger and then practicing the classical lifts instead of insisting on using the high bar and front squats. Why do a lift that mimics just half of one of the classical lifts instead of just using the squat that induces strength gains best and then just practicing the lifts?

But the experts have been saying for years that the back squat and front squat are better than the low bar squat because they induce strength gains a bit more specific to what's needed in the classical lifts. I dunno. Like I said, the low bar was doing a good job of getting me stronger in both the high bar and front squat; doesn't that imply I was getting stronger in a way specific enough?

On the contrary, back when I did only low bar back squats (best was 390lbs) I could front squat about 250 and high bar back squat around 315. Now I can do 350 front, 400 high bar and 430 low bar.

Also, I only did front squats for about 8 months. I hurt my back twice doing back squats and didn't want to bother with them. After some time off, some rehab and only front squats for a while I could do them again. When I started back squatting again, my high bar squat went up significantly and my low bar squat stayed around the same.

I don't think low bar squats make you any stronger than high bar squats. They are just easier, so you can use more weight.

[Tom Sherwood]

I sprained my meniscus in march.. I have been training consistently for about 3 months now. my clean technique has improved so much that i clean and jerk close to or my actual max front squat depending on how fresh/tired my CNS is. I dont back squat, only fronts anymore. we'll see how I do at the american open.

[Simon Klimesh]

I sprained my meniscus in march.. I have been training consistently for about 3 months now. my clean technique has improved so much that i clean and jerk close to or my actual max front squat depending on how fresh/tired my CNS is. I dont back squat, only fronts anymore. we'll see how I do at the american open.

How frequently do you train Tom? Do you do SN,CJ,FS for your workouts?

[Stephen Georgiou]

a bunch of very quick/rough ideas ill throw out there:

1) front squat more closely resembles what would happen during clean recovery. ie more vertical back, predominant use of quads, with more of the posterior chain taken out of the equation relative to a back squat (especially a low bar back squat).

2) back squat is a bit less of a clean mimic because of the less vertical back. The greater that forward lean (while maintaining the load over centre of gravity!), the more you involve the posterior chain, and the more you can lift.

3) If you 'super low bar' back squat you involve the posterior chain to such an extent that you are probably directly helping strengthen your ability to maintain back angle during the first pull of the clean/snatch. 

4) Back squat excellent for general strength and acclimatising to the heaviest of loads (including both physiological and psychological aspects).

5) You could argue that doing both front and back squats would be a good idea. Back for 'strength', and front for more specific application...

6)...although, if you are doing cleans, you are actually doing plenty of front squatting.

7) focussing on front squats probably important for newcomers to sport for developing recieving position and developing efficient clean recovery.

8) im not a very good lifter (not for want of trying!) so much of this is simply hypothetical! :)

[Sean Hutchinson]

   " From my experience people focus on the squat too much. I train with a particular individual sometimes and he out lifts me by at least 10+kgs on each lift, snatch and c&J, everytime we train together. When we get done doing the competition lifts and move on to the front squat or the back squat I always out lift him in this regard. The fact that I can out squat him means nothing."

It means you have the potential to lift more, the fact is your technique is probably lacking such that you can't lift more than your partner.

 "The back squat is a competitive lift in Powerlifting, don't take it too seriously. This sport is Snatch and C&J."

Strength is key in being successful in this sport. If you can't back squat it, you won't be able to clean and jerk it and damn sure won't be able to snatch it. Fact is fact. All those guys that snatch double body weight and clean and jerk 2-3x's body weight squat big.


   " Just yesterday an older man in the gym asked me why I was doing the back squat if I was a olympic style weightlifter. He must have known the difference between powerlifting and weightlifting, and wondered why I was doing a back squat. I told him it was an assistance exercise...but what a great question."

That's a stupid question. You are back squating to get stronger. That's like asking a sprinter why he does squats, power cleans, etc. He's obviously doing it to get stronger and more explosive. Once you master the technique of any sport the only way to get better at it is to become stronger and more powerful.

[Tom Sherwood]

I sprained my meniscus in march.. I have been training consistently for about 3 months now. my clean technique has improved so much that i clean and jerk close to or my actual max front squat depending on how fresh/tired my CNS is. I dont back squat, only fronts anymore. we'll see how I do at the american open.

How frequently do you train Tom? Do you do SN,CJ,FS for your workouts?

Yes. Alot of times i will muscle clean and snatch for warmups as well. sometimes i will throw in rack jerks and rdl's. I train 3-4 times a week depending how i feel. At this point i know my body and i wont workout if im tired because for me i feel like its wasted time and energy. I will experiment with this for another few months then re evaluate but so far so good.

[Shaun Le Conte]

When I first saw your reply, Sean, I actually thought it was you who was saying that squats are not that important because it would fit with what I believe to be the general training plan that is followed at LSUS

You guys definitely do a tremendous amount of strength training but squats are really just a small part of it. For instance, if we look at the below image, there is a lot more pressing and deadlifting than there is squats

[Sean Hutchinson]

When I first saw your reply, Sean, I actually thought it was you who was saying that squats are not that important because it would fit with what I believe to be the general training plan that is followed at LSUS

You guys definitely do a tremendous amount of strength training but squats are really just a small part of it. For instance, if we look at the below image, there is a lot more pressing and deadlifting than there is squats

It may seem that we don't squat that much in our training until you actually do the workouts through a phase of 10's 5's and 3's. We squat every monday and wednesday with monday up to a max set and usually 2 drop sets within 10% of that max. You tell me that hitting a max set for 10, 5 or 3 and then following that with 2 more sets withing 10% isn't enough leg training on top of push pressing and jerking depending on which part of the cycle then you are a beast. We also front squat up to a max triple, double or single on saturdays after snatching and clean and jerking(depending on which phase we are in) so we actually squat 3 days a week. We definitely have some of the strongest legs in the USA here at LSUS and the strongest cores. :)