Topic: A few questions from a beginner.

[Shaun Le Conte]

the deadlift is NOT a slow exercise by nature however, pull 150-200% of your clean and tell me how fast you are

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keeping your arms healthy is never a bad thing, light curls at the end of a workout have often cured elbow tendonitis for me, IMO apart from perhaps some flaw in his jerk lack of relatively strong arms compared to his legs is the reason vanev broke his arms 5x doing jerks

Somebody who can deadlift 150% to especially 200% of their clean have no reason to do deadlifts, unless strength in that exercise is their priority. But somebody relatively much weaker in the DL would likely benefit.

I agree that a bit of bodybuilding is not a bad thing but I can't be bothered to do single joint exercises. Chins and presses are all that interest me.

[Chuck Lopez]

for lifters who the first pull comes very easy I agree there is no reason to deadlift more than 50% extra of their clean not every lifter is this way however and to keep strength in that area they might need to consistently lifte within or greater than the range of 100-150% to keep their positioning

[Albert B. Gonzalez]

chuck i didnt say that it would magically carryover . im sayin if you got a  solid schedule for the lifts and you decide to throw in some upper body like benching it wouldnt hurt you.

ill agree that deadlifts could be highly effective for those who are lacking in the clean department. im just sayin for most part it should be technique that is our highest priority.it can always be better.

[Chuck Lopez]

point 1) that's pretty much what I'm saying

point 2) good strength in the right positions leads to good technique

[Shaun Le Conte]

I'll bow out of this topic with a promise that come May 6th, when I no longer have access to a platform or bumpers I will increase my volume of squats and deadlifts - since it may be all I can do most of the time aside from light OL. I hope it works out. I'd rather do snatch and clean & jerk.

On a personal note, Chuck, from viewing your video it does not appear that strength off the floor is an issue since you get that bar moving fast enough. Perhaps you are arguing just in general.

[Chuck Lopez]

I see no reason why you can't at least snatch in a commercial gym but more strength is never a bad thing

I am arguing in general but relating to me the pull looks fast but it really isn't and the weight feels very heavy, when the weight gets past what I can clean it comes to a grinding slow pull off the floor and no pop in it once I finally do get it to my hips, I believe it is a lack of strength in that position that causes this

[Frank Barosky]

Regarding the discussion about deadlifting - be careful about over doing it. When I was powerlifter in the 80's (I was in my early 30's) my most successful deadlift training was to do power cleans for sets of 3 and clean grip high pulls for sets of 3 twice a week. Once a week after the power cleans and high pulls I would increase the weight by 100 lbs and using a clean grip, pull the bar to just above knees, stop, count to 3, and then pull as hard and fast as I could to finish the deadlift. That was my deadlift training routine. I have relatively short arms (a completed deadlift put the bar across my "package". At a 163 lb bodyweight my best official deadlift was 589 lbs.

When I tried training the deadlift more conventionally (actually doing deadlifts for sets and reps) my deadlift went down.

Because of the explosive training I did with the power cleans and high pulls, it seems I didn't even "notice" the weight until it passed my knees.

Given my experience, I'd recommend sticking with high pulls for increased strength.

[Patrick Bateman]

The logic of the following exercises is:

-press: During the jerk you are going to have to hold a heavy weight overhead. Having strong shoulders and core and tri's will help you hold it over head without being a wobbly mess.

-Bench press: as above. but also helps with lock out, and strengthen the elbow joint. Also work synergistically with the press.

-chins/pull up: works the lats, whcih helps keep the bar close throughout the pull. also works the grip. also strengthens the elbow joint.

All of the above also work some of the 'beach muscles' that some trainees will want to sneak into a routine especially around summer. So you may as well do it in way that will help the lifts too.

-Low bar back squat: works more of the posterior chain, as well as the muscles used in a high bar back squat. This helps for pulls. Also the body position mimics position used during a pull. I think modern lifters do too much FS, especially since we FS every time we clean.

The advantages are described in depth more eloquently in this article:
http://startingstrength.com/articles/squat_rippetoe.pdf

-Deadlift: Helps practice bar path. Strengthens the muscles used in a pull.
I am not sure why there is a misconception that deadlifting will make you slow? i mean how is that possible? has it not occured that if you can lift a heavy object, it makes it easier to move a lighter object fast BECAUSE it is so damn light?

I do admit that deadlifts need to be programmed very carefully as they can interfere masively, and fatigue can ruin all your other lifts.

I also noticed here in uk some of our best o-lifters were throwers ie better then the guys who had devoted more time to o-lifting. These guys did both DL and low bar BS, as well as . In the local o-lifting gym the best lifter is a thrower, he beats all the guys training 6 times a week, and he only traines 3 times a week.

kendrick farris is a 300kg deadlifter, trained by kyle pierce i believe who advocates all of this.

I think us sub elite weightlifters seem to chalk out all out problems to technique. But i notice that some very good lifters seem to have pretty sub standard technique. so many elite lifters have really awful bar paths, very far from vertical yet have lifted large amounts. why? because they were so damn strong. look at the recent euro champs - in the heavyweight division, a few of the good lifter have a significant forward jump.

sagir has a big forward jump, vardanians bar path was very curved, rigert made many technical mistakes. All of these guys got by because they are strong, and strong makes up for bad technique.

Which is why the perennial favourite, steroids, are used. They don't improve technique you know.

But this is all theory, and talk. Increase your deadlift to 500lbs and switch your high bar back squat to a low bar, and see for yourself. your pull will go up like mine.