Topic: A few questions from a beginner.

[Patrick Bateman]

I think benching is important, i think shoulder pressing is important, i think deadlifting is important, as is a low bar back squat - especially so for the beginner.

Imo, power is just an expression of strength. eg the average person can clean 60% of their deadlift, and elite lifter can do 75-90%. And imo it is simpler and easier for a novice to add 5kg to his deadlift then 2.5kg on his clean, so why not do it that way?

Let me ask you this; one guy can deadlift 140kg and another can deadlift 227kg. Who can clean more? Fairly obvious huh? so why not get stronger.

ok ok, i know that the elite teams don't do this - but guess what? you are probably not elite. you are probably average. Those elite lifters can just do cleans all day long and increase their maximal strength with ease just by doing that - you probably can't.

I have tried the bulgarian stuff - worked well, then stopped working after that. Tried the russian stuff - worked well, then stopped working after that. Both of these resulted me making a sharp gain then only 2.5kg a month of progress. Not good.

I added some strength lifts over the couple of months, and i have added around a kilo to my snatch every week.

So with that being said, all these ideas came from mark rippetoe and his gym WFAC in texas.

This is the routine he uses for his beginners (some of which have now qualified for nationals):

Monday
Clean and Jerk heavy
Snatch for sets across


Tuesday
Squat
Press
Chin-ups


Wednesday
Off


Thursday
Snatch heavy
Clean and jerk singles across


Friday
Squat
Bench
Deadlift

The lifter will be fresh on Monday to clean and jerk heavy after the two days of rest. A novice will be able to squat the day after doing the Olympic lifting, and deadlifting is done at the end of the week because if it was done any earlier, it may interfere with the other pulling. The sets across for snatch or C&J should/could be timed — on the minute for a snatch (between 10 and 15) and every two minutes for C&J (for 10 reps). Doing it in this manner accomplishes a few things (not in any particular order); A) it uses medium weights so that completed reps build confidence, B) the higher reps are technique practice, and C) it gets the lifter used to lifting on a clock, which will be important in competition. The heavy snatch or C&J days can be five singles across, or just working up to a heavy single (ideally increasing that single week to week). Remember that any increase is still an increase, so it may be 2.5 or 1 kg per week in the later stages — the point is to drive the weight up and PR.


This program can be followed for quite some time — it is what quite a few of the lifters here in the gym did, and got pretty strong. One of my lifters named Bryan, who was mentioned in Rip’s article, The Novice Effect, squatted over 500 for three sets of five and clean and jerked 155 kg in the gym using this program. A novice can recover from this work load because they are a novice. In fact, I used a variation of it at one time while I added 5 kg on my clean and jerk every week all the way up to 165 kg in the gym (I was an intermediate though, and it didn’t last long). The point is that it still includes two strength days while working on the lifts twice a week. More strength will improve your total — remember that.

This was taken from here: http://www.70sbig.com/?p=1315

and further discussion about intermediate routines that use strength lifts can be found here: http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/showthread.php?t=15909

[Albert B. Gonzalez]

hows your form?

[Chuck Lopez]

@patrick bateman

I would agree with everything you said I especially like rippetoes' ideas of doing more strength lifts especially heavy pulls and deads, however I don't think the low bar squat really carries over, I can lift a LOOOOT more weight on it than the typical high bar squat I spent months doing no carry over of the strength to lifts done using slightly different muscles

[Shaun Le Conte]

I would like to wish those who plan to reach their peak with heavy amounts of deadlifts and squats good luck. I would like to believe that it is the way to go, because I may soon have little choice. If I could put myself in an ideal situation, and have a platform and bumpers right in my own home I would spend most of the time doing snatch & clean & jerk or variants.

Rippletoe's statement in the forum link by Patrick B. " And I don't think you get to leave out the deadlift until you're cleaning 500" sounds pretty obtuse.

[Chuck Lopez]

the problem I think is that people usually think deadlift means something with a big rounded upper back and high ass hips like konstantine konstantinov does, but really a regular clean style deadlift done once a week or so would help those who have trouble off the floor to make the pull easier, if you already have a good pull because that portion of the lift comes easy to you they're probably a waste of energy though

[Albert B. Gonzalez]

mark ripptoe seems to be in love with deadlifts. imo deadlift is a great lower body exercise but to me doesnt seem like good indicator of speed or strength in the oly lifts as it only involves the ability to stand up...really slow.ive read in a interview he had that he feels if you cant deadlift more than you clean you cannot become a strong olympic lifter. i do consider it a great warmup or training tool but to be taken as seriously as any of the oly lifts is sort of weird. as for the bench it doesnt seem like pushing a weight perpendicular to your chest wont lend well to developing proper form or technique as it only requires the ability to lay down and push up. of course this type of movement can be a good indicator of upper body strength but imo transfers better to other sports.there is no moment in the snatch or the clean and jerk in which youll find yourself suddenly laying on the floor and pushing the weight up from your chest. olympic lifts are almost as sport specific as you can get. if other well known lifters are incorporating them in their programs its only because they already had solid foundation in the lifts.the shoulder press obviously carries over in the jerk but only if you train with proper technique in mind.
squatting really needs no explanation here its benefits have been proven .
and im sorry chuck but curls have no place in olympic lifting. the only time curls keep your elbows injury free is when your doing curls.sure there are some things in olympic lift training that are outdated.like steriods.

[Chuck Lopez]

well in a way rippetoe is right, if you can't deadlift a weight than you can't clean it, I know there are lifters who never pull in training but IMO the pull comes easy to them so they don't need to

the deadlift is NOT a slow exercise by nature however, pull 150-200% of your clean and tell me how fast you are, its meant to train back, hamstring, glute and grip strength which would carryover well to a clean it will carry over more if the positions are the same

assistance does not have to be sport specific, it doesn't matter if you never find yourself lying down and pushing a weight up if someone is lacking upper body pushing strength the bench is a good exercise why does it magically carryover now that pro lifters they have a foundation?

I agree the press standing is probably a better choice though

keeping your arms healthy is never a bad thing, light curls at the end of a workout have often cured elbow tendonitis for me, IMO apart from perhaps some flaw in his jerk lack of relatively strong arms compared to his legs is the reason vanev broke his arms 5x doing jerks

I do hope your kidding about the steroids part, as long as superhuman performance is demanded on the pro level its never going to go away

[Ian Gallimore]

I've never liked this "deadlifts are slow" argument. No good lifter pulls a heavy deadlift deliberately slowly - they aim to pull it as fast as possible. It only travels relatively slowly because it's very, very heavy.

Furthermore, the deadlift is something that doesn't need to be trained very often, nor very heavy, in order for it to improve. I pulled 210kg @87kg last week having not pulled any heavier than 175/5x2 during the previous 10 weeks, and having mostly pulled in the 160s for a couple of 5s. Prior to that I pulled 200kg having not pulled any heavier than a 170x3 clean dead in 8 or 9 months.

The end result is that, if performed correctly, you can have a back of iron (that 210 was pulled with a back as straight as a board) without impacting on your recovery. IMO the muscles of the upper back are some of the most important muscles for a weightlifter. The upper back stops the lifter losing position off the floor. The upper back allows the lifter to pull the bar in past the knees. The upper back stops the lifter collapsing under a heavy clean. The upper back allows the lifter to impart maximal force to the bar during the jerk. The upper back supports most of the weight overhead in the jerk and snatch. There are few exercises better at developing upper back strength. Obviously a lifter needs to consider the focus of their training at a particular time when programming when/if to deadlift, but I think to dismiss the deadlift entirely is throwing the baby out with the bathwater somewhat.

For a beginner lifter I actually think they can be a valuable tool, provided they are programmed correctly (in the 5-8 rep range, with the possibility of some work in the 10 rep range, and starting light and building up over a reasonably long period of time), and are performed correctly (which means both lifter and coach have to be very strict about when to cut a set short). Not only do they build valuable strength and musculature over the entire body, but they can also help to reinforce good positions and strength in those positions, *provided they are performed in an appropriate manner*.

In the OP's case I'd suggest that if they are to continue to deadlift then I would have them drop right down in weight and start with a weight where they can comfortably hold the requisite positions involved in the clean. I know guys who pull in the 270kg range who can't pull 150 with a flat upper back and tight arch whilst staying over the bar. I find this not only reinforces position, but also provides a enjoyable change from another back squat session. Done in this manner the deadlift should also drive up the squat.

Bench press, whilst not necessary for most lifters, may be useful for some, and if the OP enjoys it I see no reason why he shouldn't continue with it provided he structures his training accordingly and doesn't go overboard on the volume. Sure, he might not get much stronger at the bench, but if he's smart about it and makes sure he keeps on eye on his tissue quality, particularly the upper back when gets very gnarled up by benching, then I don't see why not. I'd use a grip closer/equal to your jerk grip rather than max comp legal. 15-20 mins to work up to a couple of decent 5s is no big deal.

Something like this works well:

A) Snatch or B) C&J for 8-10 singles at technical limit, on the minute
A) Squat or B) dead up to 2 decent 5s (no heavier than technical limit on deads)
A) Press or B) bench up to 2 decent 5s
Pull-ups for 2x5r
Heavy abs like standing rollouts for a set of 5

Frequency is regular, volume per session is low, decide on the weight on a session by session basis depending on how you feel and how well you're moving. No misses allowed on the strength work, so no annihilating yourself to get a 2.5kg PR.