Topic: Oly lifting for bodybuilding results

[Oly68]

I recently became interested in Oly lifting, particularly the C&P.  I realize this lift was dropped in '72 but that doesn't take away from it being IMO far & away THE most fun form of exercise in existence.  I found a scanned book by Jim Halliday and even back when it was written in 1950 the author noted that the majority (75%+) of those interested in Oly lifting did so w/ a "bodybuilding" type reason behind the interest.
> http://www.sandowplus.co.uk/Competition/Halliday/OW/ow-intro.htm

What has the experience been of those likeminded to me?  The development possible w/ the C&P besides being obvious is also incredible.  The size increases possible w/ the C&J and the Snatch I'm not aware of - so please enlighten me.

[John Way]

my dad is a old school 50s and 60s lifter, when I started I did 18 months of bodybuilding with basic equipment, mainly benches, clean and press, dumbell work fly, lateral work and deadlifts in order to bulk up a bit from about 110lbs when I got to about 130lbs I started a little olympic lifting but the type of equipment I had wasnt very good for the snatch, so I mainly did cleans, jerks, and presses. Eventually I did start competing at club level, after some time my jerk abilities reduced because I no longer did presses. So I went from being a strong jerker to a strong snatcher. I think some press work , light to heavy should be encouraged now & then, with jerk and wider grips. Not too sure about benches as the bar might go forward when you jerk. Of course keeping the shoulders flexible is important.

[Andy Dick]

Which would have a better carry over for a stronger jerk?  A shoulder press or a push press?  I assumed the push press since it still requires some pressing but is more specific to jerk.

[Shaun Le Conte]

To me a push press is very dissimilar to a jerk. However some of the best lifters in the US are doing lots of them, so probably that is persuasive argument to do them. If you do jerks from the rack without stands, I think the eccentric portion of the push press may help with becoming better able to lower the bar safely. I think a partial press from the shoulders to midway would be a better exercise.

To achieve bodybuilding type results from the snatch and clean & jerk exercises, I think one would be best to keep the reps in the 4-6 range, up to 10 in squats and presses and do combination movements e.g. snatch + push press (snatch grip) + overhead squats. But plain bodybuilding is better if the goal is actually bodybuilding.

[Oly68]

This is yet another reason why the Russians are so far ahead of the U.S..  They've coclusively proven that fatigue & tension are mutually exclusive principles.  The higher the tension the more muscle fibers your going to involve -  the higher the weight the higher the tension.  The more reps you do w/ a weight the more fatigue you induce.  The most effective way of increasing the size of a muscle(s) are many low rep sets (3-5).  W/ this system your able to deliver both a high level of tension AND induce a much deeper level of fatigue.  < This is classic Russian strength/size (bodybuilding) at its best.  Pavel Tsatsouline's "Bear" routine from his book Power To The People expands on this in detail.  Before reading I never would have beleived its principles - until I tried them myself and have seen greater results in 6 months than 15 yrs of 1 set to failure 1x a wk american logic.

[Shaun Le Conte]

Good luck, comrade Oly68!

[Andy Dick]

Obviously the differences between a push press and a jerk are different but I would think adding in the dip and drive brings it a step closer to the jerk than a standard shoulder press.  I also remember reading in another thread that doing a lot of shoulder presses can hinder jerking by decreasing flexibility in the shoulder.  In my odd thinking the other reason I do these is I am like the press out king so I was thinking that it seems I am weak at some point in my drive to full extension of my arms that push presses might help.  Please let me know your thoughts.

[Shaun Le Conte]

My own lifting is laughable so my opinions on training have little credibility. However,

In my own experience I have never been able to push press any more than 65-70% of my jerk. So to do 2-4 reps I would personally have to use about 60% of my jerk weight which is pretty light for training the dip portion. The finish, standing there with straight legs forcing up the bar with my arms to me is not like a jerk at all and I think that in a jerk, there is no pressing taking place in the top half range of motion of a press. The pressing is done near when the bar leaves the shoulders, and after the split the bar is (should be) caught on straight arms.

Since you say you are a pressout king, I really think that push presses are just going to make you more effective at pressing out jerks. You will press them out more easily.

As you may have seen from the program that Sean Hutchinson made public on Goheavy, LSUS lifters do tons of push press and they are obviously quite good so ...see my first sentence.