Topic: Relationship of squats to clean & jerk

[Judas]

It all comes down to timing and this takes many reps to get the timing and consistency in technique. Also, you cannot have any fear. You hit it on the nose when you said that you need to work with lighter weights to get the consistency and timing with improved technique. Keep working at it and get the help when you can. One thing you can do if you are unable to get to a qualified experienced coach is to film some of your training, send it to someone so that they can give you feedback. One thing to watch for is if you do it in a public forum you will get a myriad of responses which could confuse an athlete but again you may hear the same thing from many, which could help.

Here are the percentages that I was using based off of your 1RM Back Squat. Not sure where I got these from as it was a long time ago.

Front Squat - 89%
C & J - 80%
Power Jerk - 73.75%
Snatch - 63.75%
Press - 45%

Hmmm... i wouldn't have thought i'd need to work on my front squat, but even going by my high-bar oly squat ov 230 i could stand to build it a bit, like about 10kg. I 'only' need a good 50kg on my clean, and 25 kg on my snatch. My press is already there or better... gee, big surprise there... Basically, at least i already had a very good idea ov where i need work and how much. I dont mind a slightly higher snatch by ratio though... i just love doing those...

Cleans are the biggie... and they will come with a bit more nerve. And i've got just the fix for that (and no, its not alcohol...)

I'm in the market for a video camera, but right now i have other slightly more important priorities... little details like food and protein, gas to get to the gym. Heh heh... might be a while...

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Judas,
  I read Guy's commentary and the results of the formula as on showing that at least I am woefully inadequate, comparably, in the front squat.  You are much more balanced than I, kudos to you for the hard work and diligence.  As I state that, I don't know if improving your back squat that 10kg would truly be the right path.  Perhaps improving the front squat that 10kg instead? 

   This little analysis in this thread is going to make me drop all back squats.  Instead, I'm going front squat  5-4-3-2-1 one day a week, front squat 5 sets of 3 (light) one session a week, and wicked heavy 1/2 and 1/4 front squats one session a week. The only way to get better at a movement is to do it.  Took me forever to realize that weight training is practice (like my event work) and if i want to get better at something, I have to practice it over and over.

   Have you thought of a plan to remedy your clean issue?  I would bet it's completely mental at this stage.  And 190 would be a serious clean at 105 in the 35+.  As would a 145 snatch.  To be frank, 140 and 120 are great numbers.  Absolutely great numbers. 

 The Flip camera I use to record my lifts ran $100 USD at Sams Club.  It has built in editing software that's easy to use.  Given I don't have a hands on eye's on contemporaneous coach, it's a necessity.  Just a thought.

All the best,
 Arden

[Judas]

Judas,
  I read Guy's commentary and the results of the formula as on showing that at least I am woefully inadequate, comparably, in the front squat.  You are much more balanced than I, kudos to you for the hard work and diligence.  As I state that, I don't know if improving your back squat that 10kg would truly be the right path.  Perhaps improving the front squat that 10kg instead? 

You read it wrong, i meant improve my front squat 10kg, not the back. Neither are holding me back in the least though.

 

  Have you thought of a plan to remedy your clean issue?  I would bet it's completely mental at this stage.  And 190 would be a serious clean at 105 in the 35+.  As would a 145 snatch.  To be frank, 140 and 120 are great numbers.  Absolutely great numbers.

Yeah, i've got a plan. Breaking psychological plateaus is my specialty, ironically. And who said anything about 190...??? Let me hit 140 first. 

The Flip camera I use to record my lifts ran $100 USD at Sams Club.  It has built in editing software that's easy to use.  Given I don't have a hands on eye's on contemporaneous coach, it's a necessity.  Just a thought.

All the best,
 Arden

Heh... i cant even  afford a protein shake right now. I am $1000's away from being able to afford a $100 camera... Times are tough...

[Paul LaDuke]

This is really an interesting thread to me as my dad has a PhD in math and I was a math education major in undgergrad. 

I have recently been really working on my squat (high bar, Oly style) and have improved by 10kg in 2mos.  I maxed out 2 days ago and did 190kg.

Here are my current training numbers then:
age: 42 will be 43 in March, 2010
body weight: 94-95kgs holding steady
back squat: 190kg
front squat: 150kg (almost 1 year ago, I estimate 155kg now)
snatch: 100kg
clean and jerk: 130kg

So the formula lets me know it is now time to work on speed and technique.  The spreadsheet tells me I have the current strength level to snatch 108-112kg and clean and jerk 134 to 139kg.   That would be a total of 242 or better.  My competition best is 228.

I agree that weightlifting is pretty easy in concept.  Perfect your technique, get stronger, get better technique, get even stronger, improve your technique even more, get stronger.  It's goes in cycles.  I just finished a get stronger cycle, now it is time to go on to a better technique and faster speed cycle.

A 240kg total in the 94s in my 40s would be awesome.

[Chris Betancourt]

Made a very simplified version of your excel file, Chris. Now it also calculates all data for all lifts when you enter anything in. Thanks for the data!

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Cool. I did notice after someone sent me a link that you stated on another forum that this research was collected at a national weightlifting meet. This isn't the case. The data was collected via interviews, at various locations and through email and phone as I recall. All the subjects were national level qualifiers, however. Also, not everyone fit a "perfectly straight line." The relationships are all above .9 but they are not perfect. If they were, the formula would presumably predict your exact numbers based on other numbers. But, they are within a narrow range, since efficiency of technique affects the relationship a little (or a lot in elites depending on how you look at it.)

Cheers

[Jack Dluzen]

hhhmmm, now i was thinking , they have chats , that if  say you back squat  170 kgs 5 times  , a lifter should be able to  back squat such and such wt, for a 1 rep max... now would this work out as  far as knowing what you  say rep max with a certain wt . instead of a single max, also be feasable to ballpark ones , o/l max percentages?  just food for thought guys  nothing else to do today but shovel snow!!!! and im not looking forward to that

[rw2k73]

Check out the attached spreadsheet. It uses formulae developed from hopefully soon to be published research (Fry, Lucero, LeRoux et al. (author order/list may be different in published work) establishing the relationship between the front squat, back squat, snatch, clean and jerk, and total, on average, for national level qualifiers in America. Change the numbers for the squats (in top section) or lifts (in bottom section) under "Enter Data" and view the resulting equivalent in "Get result." Use kilograms of course. There is an "acceptable" range for the equivalents, but I don't have the number on hand.

Hope I don't get in trouble for releasing this before the research is published. 

Chris - with regards to the formula, I enter in my BS and my S and C+J results are higher than my actual, however, when I enter my current FS, the S and C+J are very close to my numbers. Would this suggest that bring my FS up would push my lifts more than technique at this point?

Also, am I correct is assuming that you would want to wear a belt on all four movements or wear none at all in order for the calculations to be accurate?