Topic: Relationship of squats to clean & jerk

[Dustin Oranchuk]

Just though I would post some of my numbers.  (all are in training at a body-weight of 95-96kgs at 20 years old)

Currently at:

115 Snatch
140 Clean and Jerk
147.5 Front squat
172.5 Back squat (165 for a double)
122.5 power jerk
130 Power clean
97.5-100 power snatch (100 was RIGHT at parallel)
107.5 snatch from blocks
100 snatch from the hang (double)


according to the tables, my lifts could potentially improve greatly with better squat numbers

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

according to the tables, my lifts could potentially improve greatly with better squat numbers

Glad to see this tool empowering people! Focus on your weaknesses, but never sacrifice your strengths/talents in the process.

[Judas]

Hi J,

I just had a quick look at this topic and wanted to give you my thoughts on what your lifts could be at if your technique was fairly proficient. This is based off of a 245kg Back Squat. Knowing that your background is Powerlifting it would all depend on how you are performing the back squat. Is it a Powerlifting Squat or an Olympic lifting Squat? Here is what I came up with off of 245. This is based off of percentages and I found that these percentages calculated off of my best Back Squat were very close to my personal best lifts in training.

Front Squat - 218kg
Clean & Jerk - 196kg
Power Jerk - 180kg
Power Clean - 166kg
Snatch - 156kg
Power Snatch - 135kg

Hey Guy, howsitgoin'...???

Thanks for weighing in on the topic. My back squat is an olympic back squat, full ATG, upright, good form, etc. But i have two numbers, 245 (well, higher than that now i think if we go by reps) is done low-bar, but otherwise an olympic squat. I hit 230 highbar last year with a bit more left. The difference between the two is huge for me. I haven't done a 'powerlifter' squat in over three years. I dont use wraps or belt. My front is pure olympic. I think if we used my highbar number it might relate with my front a bit better. But i never squat high, or wide, or bent over.

My technique is at least decent. I'm as fast as anyone who's not a freak (locally, lets say Simardeep Virk, Jasvir), my flexibility could use some work, but doesn't seem to hinder me, oddly enough. Efficient...??? Well... now we've found a problem. I would actually peg my lifts at 123 and 140, but i hurt myself before i could snatch the 123 and the 140 is pure mental block. Even Dieter couldn't believe i couldn't clean it. My jerk is (was) 143 and likely more now, again, by my rep capacity. My numbers/ratios are still skewed though... for instance, i've hang power snatched 116, power snatched 111x3, and can still almost power snatch my full snatch PR. I can front squat 190+ and do decent clean pulls with 175, but when i rack 135 and squat it its hard, so something is obviously off. I'm an ass-backwards nut-case in weightlifting... you'd really have to see to believe... Sometimes i just boggle Dieter.

I need to wrap my head around getting under heavy cleans, and i need to heal this stupid pubic bone area before i can snatch (internal bleeding is fun). Upper body flexibility comes surprisingly easy considering that i still bench, and i hit really nice low squat positions. Really, i just need some consistent coaching, and some competition... a club.

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Dustin,
 Very impressive!!!!  You have youth on your side, keep on moving forward.

All the best,
 Arden

Just though I would post some of my numbers.  (all are in training at a body-weight of 95-96kgs at 20 years old)

Currently at:

115 Snatch
140 Clean and Jerk
147.5 Front squat
172.5 Back squat (165 for a double)
122.5 power jerk
130 Power clean
97.5-100 power snatch (100 was RIGHT at parallel)
107.5 snatch from blocks
100 snatch from the hang (double)


according to the tables, my lifts could potentially improve greatly with better squat numbers

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Judas,
  You and I are in the exact same boat. I have a big fear of pulling myself under a perfectly good barbell.  As a result, I've engrained a bad habit of pulling the bar too high.  But I'm getting better at it as I've introduced tall box drills to make myself pull under - I call them "drop downs."  I'm about 4" from pull extension on my snatches, so all I can do is extend and pull under.  About 2" from full extension for the cleans.

   I finally started some heavy squats again just a few weeks ago and I nailed 500pounds for a set of 5 ATG during a recent session.  I think I could have done 3 more reps, but I see no need to do so. I've squatted in the high 600s before, but that was with knee wraps and a belt. I am very confident that I could get close to that with just Rehbands at this stage and that completely shocks me as I moved those heavier weights more than 10 years ago and in a lot stoopider manner.  I state that it shocks how light the heavier weights feel at this stage.

   My second major disconnect is that I'm a very gifted deadlifter/puller (it's a completely genetic thing - long arms, short torso, thick round back; very simian, thank you mom and dad). I can, during just about any given session, deadlift over 700 pounds without much concern. To go over low 700s, I need to ramp up and train for it, which I have very little interest in at this stage of my life.  But I cannot get that pull to transfer over to a clean or a snatch.  It's one of the reasons I've been very dogmatic in trying to become heel heavy and chest forward in all pulls. 

  I personally think, that for those of us with a powerlifting back ground, we truly need to forego all ego and simply eat humble pie and move lighter weights and work on the technical side of things until we have "lost our fears" or sorted out our disconnects with form. 

   And it's the coaching part that is so important.  Consistent is key.  Not an easy road to hoe.  I know that the nearest coach to me is a good 4 hour drive.  I'm technically a USAW Club Coach, but I'm a complete novice.  It's the reason I turn to sites like WE and Performance Menu and the net in general for knowledge.

   And Chris's formula as lit a fire under me to improve my front squat.  It's going to be a fun journey.

All the best,
 Arden

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

And Chris's formula as lit a fire under me to improve my front squat.  It's going to be a fun journey.

Just a small point of info. I can't take credit for these formulae. The study itself was my idea but Rhys Lucero did nearly all the work. I helped by giving him an experienced lifter/coach to bounce stuff off of and helped collect some data. But, he is primarily responsible, with significant guidance from Dr. Andy Fry also of course. Even this spreadsheet was created by him, at my request. :)

[Guy Greavette]

Dustin,

The CWFHC used to put on some great National Training Camps in Lac St. Denis, Quebec at a military base. At those camps we used to have little competitions at the end of training on different lifts (Split Snatch etc.). It was all for fun and not really part of the program. I remember Gary Bratty being able to perform a Snatch backwards perfectly just like if you had it in rewind from a tape. It is too bad that the CWFHC does not have the type of funding they did in my day. These National camps were very good for the athletes and coaches.

J & Arden,

It all comes down to timing and this takes many reps to get the timing and consistency in technique. Also, you cannot have any fear. You hit it on the nose when you said that you need to work with lighter weights to get the consistency and timing with improved technique. Keep working at it and get the help when you can. One thing you can do if you are unable to get to a qualified experienced coach is to film some of your training, send it to someone so that they can give you feedback. One thing to watch for is if you do it in a public forum you will get a myriad of responses which could confuse an athlete but again you may hear the same thing from many, which could help.

Here are the percentages that I was using based off of your 1RM Back Squat. Not sure where I got these from as it was a long time ago.

Front Squat - 89%
C & J - 80%
Power Jerk - 73.75%
Power Clean - 68%
Snatch - 63.75%
Power Snatch - 55%
Press - 45%

   

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Guy,
 Given my lack to a coach in person, I record all my top sets on my dynamic movements and I ocassionally record some of my top sets on the absolute movements.  I post them in my log here and on performance menu.  I've gotten a lot of great feedback and it's led to evolution in my form that has gotten from "realllllllly just bad" (not being able to actually do a squat clean) to "still not good but improving."  Lots of bad habits to break and I love doing reps and training.  It helps me stay sane given what I do for work. 

  One thing that I do is concentrate on one issue per session.  Most recently I concentarted on my bar path for my power snatches. I have a bad loop after the bar comes to the crease in my hip.  I concentrated on lessening that loop.  And it worked!  Still not near perfect, but good for me - an improvement. So I take it.

  Tomorrow's session will be concentrating on getting tall - as in addition to having the loop - in both my clean and my snatch. I cut my 2nd pulls short by not getting good and tall and getting my hips through with the 2nd pull. 

  I've written your percentages down in my training notebook.  Those are my new goals.  I've got a looooooonnngggg way to go.  And the only thing I'm close on is the Press.  That's sad.  But gives me long term goals.  Thank you.

All the best,
 Arden