Topic: Old Powerlifters learning to Olympic Lift

[DAVE PETERSON]

Yes, I concur that just because a lifter does have a core in powerlifting -- doesn't mean that it has carry over to Olympic lifting. When I started my training with Fred Lowe there were several changes in how even the squats were done . Now the foot stance was more athletic , not as wide as you did before , of course high bar not low bar and standing straight up and that last one does help in coming off the floor with the bar/weight . Yes,there were times we did partial lifts off blocks , but not many as you would in powerlifting. It was more doing lifts from the hang ; power snatches , power cleans and sometimes pulls .

If you guys know or have knowledge of the history of Russian and Bulgarian weightlifting programs , you know that they is quite a difference between the two . The Russians do all the lifts , plus lots of assistance exercises and did dominate world weightlifting for a long time . Then here comes the Bulgarians , who were more basic than anyone -- that is snatch, Clean & Jerk and squats and for alot of years at world championships they did kick the Russians butts for the team title !

 Just my input from almost 35 years in the game !

Dave Peterson, Michigan LWC

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Dave,
 this is where I'm having a serious disconnect - "O ne of the main things I learned from Fred was One pushes off and through the floor,therefore using your big legs until the bar reaches the top of the legs . Telling yourself to stay over the bar , keeping the shoulder angle the same until the bar gets to the top of your legs."

  That is so fundamental and so difficult to unlearn after having done so many deads over the years.  Especially the part about keeping the shoulders over the bar and driving the feet through the floor.

All the best,
  Arden

       
        Arden,

It did take me a while for the transition , but the biggest change from powerlifting to Olympic lifting is how much more empasis there has to be on technique . I would say at least 85 % , but some people would naturally disagree . They seem to think that if one has a big squat that they will be the best Oly lifter around and that has been proven going back to some of the best lifters , including Alexeev , Pisarenko who didn't go much higher in their squat than what they cleaned ! In Alexeev's era they were many who could out squat him , including some of his Russian team-mates , but couldn't out lift him in head to head contests ! O ne of the main things I learned from Fred was One pushes off and through the floor,therefore using your big legs until the bar reaches the top of the legs . Telling yourself to stay over the bar , keeping the shoulder angle the same until the bar gets to the top of your legs. Of course, all of these mental things are locked in before you even grab the bar. There's a lot of lifters who make the mistake of trying to think "about the lift" during the lift , it just doesn't work !!

When you are being coached at a meet , it does help to hear from the coach (from the side) ,"shoulders over the bar,keep it close and finish it " ! Some people thought it didn't help the lifter , but if it helped Fred Lowe win 8 National titles , that's good enough for me !

All the best in all you do !

Dave Peterson

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Judas,
  All great points. I especially like how you say that you regress if you don't continue to keep it heavy.  What sort of percentages or waving do you do from week to week?  My program has me ranging from 65% to 85% from week to week.  Ramping up, then waving down.  Do you do something like that?  It has helped me immensely over the past few years.  I mean ALOT. 

  And I too wish I had trained like this for the past 25 years, instead of doing what I did.  But oh well, we gotta work with what we got.  I'm gonna make the road as long as I can.

All the best,
 Arden

Heh heh... but 4 plates 'anytime' would be so much better...

And it took a good 5 years to get to this point. When i started my absolute max bench was 195lbs, at 180lbs. But as far as all the big lifts go, it is the least relevant in everyday life. Its the best for testing pure upper body strength, sure, but for testing useful upper body strength i think the press or even incline bench is a better exercise. Its fun to bench more than the powerlifters though, and if i tackle weightlifting 100% it will be even more fun to bench more than most powerlifters without ever training their lift. Its already beyond cool that weightlifters are better squatters than powerlifters, generally.

I had to give up just about all ego when I went down this path about 20 months ago.  No more low bar/wide stance squats.  No supportive equipment.  No more need to pull anything over 200 kilos.  No real need to squat anything over 200 kilos.  No real need for bench at all.  No need for curls.  No need for tricep pushdowns.  No need for ever doing a calf raise ever again!!!!

Arm stuff aside, i think there is a need for just pulling some big stupid weights every now and then, and certainly squatting heavy, and a lot. When i hit my bench goal i dropped all bench more or less, cut WAY back on the heavy squats (was already squatting 195/242, i figured thats enough for now) and utterly dropped all heavy pull work. No clean or snatch deads, no deads at all. I got some good technique work in, and my olympic sessions did well for a while, but after a couple months they started to wane, and for NO reason. Squats started to feel heavy, cleans felt heavier, i felt overtrained when i absolutely KNOW i wasn't. After exhausting my usual litany ov reasons and excuses, i just started blasting the stupid squat volume again, even brought back deadlifts... like pure powerlifter style deadlifts... for sets ov 8 no doubt, and started benching heavy reps again. Until two months ago, i'd not done a SINGLE deadlift workout in over three years. Did that for 6-8 weeks, and all ov a sudden, i'm hitting snatch and clean and jerk PR's everywhere. Even when i'm not, the bar never feels heavy, confidence is up again, and basically... i've just got a huge shot ov natural test from all the lifting.

I would have thought that being able to do a perfect olympic front squat with almost 200kg i wouldn't have to do squats at all for a while, or at least till my lame-ass 138 clean catches up some. But i found out, you stop doing that heavy **** and you regress. I've now vowed to keep the squats as heavy as possible without ruining my two lifts and i'm going to actually continue doing ridiculous deadlift workouts every month or so. My actual powerlifting deadlift is very clean anyways, its almost straight enough to call a clean dead, so its not screwing me up too much. One thing i've found is that if the first pull feels heavy, then the lift wont go well. Make that first lift light and you'll be more confident throughout the lift. Ripping 500lbs for a set ov 8  makes that 300lb first pull on my cleans feel like nothing.

With all that said, I goof around every once in a while and do things I haven't done for 20 months and amazingly I'm as strong, if not stronger now, than I was when I was doing the movements twice a week.  I like to call it the "WTH" effect of proper athletic training.

I'd like to think that will happen with my bench, but it wont. I doubt it'll ever drop to the point where i couldn't push 375, but thats still 40lbs off. Not doing a single deadlift workout (reps) in over three years hasn't affected my pull one bit though, still capable ov my max i think, maybe more. Heh... and it looks better every time i do it.

   

Enjoy the ride.  I know I am. My technique is less horrible than it was 20 months ago, but it's still not beyond mediocre.  I'm working on "positive self talk."  On some of my training vids you can actually hear me scream - "I SUCK!!"  My coach reminds me to stop the negativity and say "This sucks."  I'm learning.

All the best,
 Arden

This **** beats powerlifting anyday. And the best part...??? Everyone's equal. There are no gear arguments. There are no federation squabbles. There are no arguments about standards. I watch lifters at CPU Nationals and i wonder how strong they really are, but i watch lifters at weightlifting Nationals and i KNOW how strong they are. Until very recently, i've been ov the mindset that i'd like to get my form really good, or at least good enough to utilize my strength. But the more i hear about what i'm doing wrong or what i'm capable ov because ov my size/shape or age, the more i want to really excel at my weaknesses... technique and speed. Flexibility too. My 2010 goal is utter perfection or as close to it as i can get in one year. Or at very minimum, lift in a way that no one would ever expect, looking at me.

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Judas,
  This is so funny!!!  I have found Overhead Squats the most humbling exercise on the planet!!! Oh my god, I had no idea how weak I was until I put 135 overhead and **cked it like a football, then dumped it in front of me.  I've since got a lot more respectable with the lift, but the core is what has strengthened as a result of the OHS.  They are king!!!

All the best,
  Arden

       
        Arden,

It did take me a while for the transition , but the biggest change from powerlifting to Olympic lifting is how much more empasis there has to be on technique . I would say at least 85 % , but some people would naturally disagree . They seem to think that if one has a big squat that they will be the best Oly lifter around and that has been proven going back to some of the best lifters , including Alexeev , Pisarenko who didn't go much higher in their squat than what they cleaned ! In Alexeev's era they were many who could out squat him , including some of his Russian team-mates , but couldn't out lift him in head to head contests ! O ne of the main things I learned from Fred was One pushes off and through the floor,therefore using your big legs until the bar reaches the top of the legs . Telling yourself to stay over the bar , keeping the shoulder angle the same until the bar gets to the top of your legs. Of course, all of these mental things are locked in before you even grab the bar. There's a lot of lifters who make the mistake of trying to think "about the lift" during the lift , it just doesn't work !!

When you are being coached at a meet , it does help to hear from the coach (from the side) ,"shoulders over the bar,keep it close and finish it " ! Some people thought it didn't help the lifter , but if it helped Fred Lowe win 8 National titles , that's good enough for me !

All the best in all you do !

Dave Peterson

I think the biggest problem with powerlifters starting this, especially your typical one who competes in gear and the lot, is that a big OLYMPIC squat carries over well to olympic lifting. A big powerlifter squat isn't even close. In fact, i'd say it does little more for a lifter than provide strong enough legs and glutes to build a good olympic squat quicker. But the work still has to be done. When i first started thinking about weightlifting, and playing around with powersnatchs and powercleans etc. i had a solid 490lb super-wide stance, slightly breaking IPF parallel raw squat, lowbar ov course, plus a typical round-back 575lb deadlift. All that did for me was allow me to START  at a semi-almost half-decent 405 olympic squat. Even that was bent over because i had NO core. I do better than most because i always lifted raw at least, and always tried to be ballistic.

All that powerlifting **** they tell you to build a good core is just that... ****. I'd rack-pulled 800lbs and partialed near-700lbs in the squat rack, GM'ed 405lbs... i could out-ab anybody... and my core was STILL my weakness. Hell, if i was training myself how i train lifters now back then, i would have laughed that 405 olympic squat out ov the gym. Realistically, with good form, i'm thinking it would have topped out closer to 365. But... the powerlifting strength allowed my to build myself a 500lb olympic squat in just a few months at least. But few lifters would take that ego-blow and stick with it.

Obviously, the big bench (well, only 350 back then) only helps you jerk if you're doing it VERY wrong...

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Zach,
  I've always thought that front squats and overhead squats would be enough.  But I reckon we need to do additional ab work at the end of every session.  Especially us thicker middled middle aged folk.

All the best,
  Arden

All that powerlifting **** they tell you to build a good core is just that... ****. I'd rack-pulled 800lbs and partialed near-700lbs in the squat rack, GM'ed 405lbs... i could out-ab anybody... and my core was STILL my weakness.

This is so true.

I agree with this. When I started off PLing, I was always told squat and DL were enough for the core. No extra work needed. I dropped all core work for about a year. After an injury (ironically caused by a weak core), I decided to do some leg raises (I used to live by these), and after about 2 sets of 10, my core was very fatigued, a year prior this would have been a warmup.

[Judas]

Judas,
  All great points. I especially like how you say that you regress if you don't continue to keep it heavy.  What sort of percentages or waving do you do from week to week?  My program has me ranging from 65% to 85% from week to week.  Ramping up, then waving down.  Do you do something like that?  It has helped me immensely over the past few years.  I mean ALOT. 

  And I too wish I had trained like this for the past 25 years, instead of doing what I did.  But oh well, we gotta work with what we got.  I'm gonna make the road as long as I can.

All the best,
 Arden

I typically just do a simple 5x8/5x5/3x3 peaking program ov my own design. I start light with 5 sets ov 8 and add 5lbs to every set (they're ascending sets) every workout. I generally bench every 4 days. So, when the weights are light (read: beginning ov the scheme) bench days are easy. But near the end ov each scheme i'm literally PRing every single workout till it peaks. Sometimes thats 5-6 workouts, other times i'm hitting PR workouts every 4 days for almost a month.

The 8's typically start at around 70% or less, yes... very easy, and by the last couple workouts i'm usually tripling 100% (or more) ov my starting max. This can take months though... and the only downside to this program i've found is that you cant predict when it will end. Its open-ended... not the best for peaking into comps.

[Judas]

Its been two years since i did an overhead squat i didn't snatch up first. They were absolutely great when i started weightlifting, and i still recommend them for certain issues, but now that i'm officially 'not bad', i think there are better methods. I'll explain in detail: FRONT SQUATS. (/detail)

Every now and then a good weightlifter tells me i need to do more (or at least some) ab work. I've already got 41" abs... and a six-pack. Heh... they do NOT need to be any bigger. Front squats are more than enough core work. No need for anything else. Besides... last time i did ab work i almost killed myself trying to hold two 45lb plates and two 5's while balancing on a stability ball (that was probably not designed for over 300lbs...). I can do Rocky-IV's down to the bench, and 'windshield wipers' for sets ov 20. My abs are plenty strong... thank you front squats!

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

HA!     Can you imagine if that ball would have popped when you were doing your crunches?  That would not have been good. 

I have gone down the same path.  My waist is about as thick but I don't have a six pack; damn genetics, oh well.  I'm proud of my keg.  He's a good boy and i've put a lot of effort into him. 

I'm very blessed in that when I was OL focused, I trained with 2006 WSM Phil Pfister the last 10 weeks before each of his major contests the past few years.  He would do two "gym workouts" a week, and I'd join him.  Then he'd do his event work, while I did mine.  The gym workouts were epic - heavy, unstable surface, and just down right silly.  Nick Osbourne programmed it and some of the movements were insane.  One of my favorites was a circuit we'd do - Conventional pull 585 for 5, sumo pull 225 on dyna dics x5, then stand on the ball side of a bosu ball and do RDL with 40lb dumbells.  Absolutely insane.  We'd do about four of those circuits.  When were  done we were done!!!!!

And I loved it!

All the best,
 Arden

Its been two years since i did an overhead squat i didn't snatch up first. They were absolutely great when i started weightlifting, and i still recommend them for certain issues, but now that i'm officially 'not bad', i think there are better methods. I'll explain in detail: FRONT SQUATS. (/detail)

Every now and then a good weightlifter tells me i need to do more (or at least some) ab work. I've already got 41" abs... and a six-pack. Heh... they do NOT need to be any bigger. Front squats are more than enough core work. No need for anything else. Besides... last time i did ab work i almost killed myself trying to hold two 45lb plates and two 5's while balancing on a stability ball (that was probably not designed for over 300lbs...). I can do Rocky-IV's down to the bench, and 'windshield wipers' for sets ov 20. My abs are plenty strong... thank you front squats!