Topic: Old Powerlifters learning to Olympic Lift

[Judas]

Judas LOL.

Personally, I see no shame in your quest to maintain your bench press.  As long as it doesn't compromise your shoulder flexibility to go overhead I would not be too concerned.

I recently re-introduce "bench like" movements because, well, to be frank, my boobies were not as taut as I'd prefer.   But a secondary motivation was I'm changing an event technique that requires a good bit of shoulder/chest/upper  back rotational torque - the event is called "singe buck" or "single hand sawing" or "one person crosscut sawing."

Given that I train every other day, my routine turned into the following
Day 1 - a.m. Power Snatch, Overhead Squat, Back Squat, Snatch Pull, 4 board, abs p.m kettlebell conditioning
Day 2- Event train
Day 3 -a.m. Power Clean or box squat clean, push press, front squat, clean pull, 2 board, abs  p.m. kettlebell conditioning
Day 4 - rest or light event train
Day 5 - a.m. Snatch, Clean and jerk, back squat, Deadlift, ring push ups or incline, abs.  p.m kettlebell conditioning
Day 6 - Heavy Event work
Day 7 - light event work or rest.

Given that it's my offseason, my event work is pretty high volume working on technique.  And my gym work is about getting fit and as strong as I can for the onslaught of the upcoming season.  High Volume on the reps and pretty heavy on the percentages - but not over 85%.

The inclusion of the pressing movements, I think, has helped me adjust to some technical changes in my single hand sawing.  Loving it.  And I've not compromised any overhead flexibility.  If anything, it's made my jerks "solid-er." 

All the best,

  Arden
 Arden

Yeah well... bench does not come easily for me. Never did. I had to put on 55lbs ov LBM, over 4" on my arms and almost 10" on my chest to get the leverages up to snuff. Now i'm doing rather well. But to improve further, this bulk needs to go another 5lbs, and that means a LOT ov heavy high-rep benching, incline benching, incline DB's and military presses and a ****-ton ov heavy arm work. I cant even look at heavy DB flys... i cant snatch for a week after those. I dont even do incline DB press anymore. And in light ov the last two week's rather inspiring progress in snatch, cleans and jerk, i'm thinking ov dropping the bench entirely.

Thing is... i like doing it. Its a meaningless lift, but its fun to be good at it (especially when i wasn't before). I'm at the point where i could probably go 100% weightlifting and never bench again, and still hit 3 1/2 plates on any given day. But it would be cool to get to a level where i could lose 40lbs off my bench and still hit 405 on any given day. That was my plan. Now the snatch is beckoning... and i haven't done a bench workout in two weeks now...

Get me to a club 3-5 times a week and i'll never lay down on that bench again... . . .

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Judas,
  I gotta tell you, I say props to a fellow who can lie down with little training and push up 365 with little or no effort.  That speaks volume to me.  You say you've put a lot into it and it is hard to give it up - I completely understand where you're coming from.  And it's not a completely meaningless lift.  Most folk who are not lifting experienced refer to the bench as the tell all of personal strength. When those of us that know, know that other lifts are a better indication of overall physical strength. 

     I had to give up just about all ego when I went down this path about 20 months ago.  No more low bar/wide stance squats.  No supportive equipment.  No more need to pull anything over 200 kilos.  No real need to squat anything over 200 kilos.  No real need for bench at all.  No need for curls.  No need for tricep pushdowns.  No need for ever doing a calf raise ever again!!!!

   With all that said, I goof around every once in a while and do things I haven't done for 20 months and amazingly I'm as strong, if not stronger now, than I was when I was doing the movements twice a week.  I like to call it the "WTH" effect of proper athletic training.

   Enjoy the ride.  I know I am. My technique is less horrible than it was 20 months ago, but it's still not beyond mediocre.  I'm working on "positive self talk."  On some of my training vids you can actually hear me scream - "I SUCK!!"  My coach reminds me to stop the negativity and say "This sucks."  I'm learning.

All the best,
 Arden

[DAVE PETERSON]

     Arden ,

 I can relate very well to the above heading , for I put in 8-9 years of powerlifting before I started training with our local Olympian , Fred Lowe . Despite being almost 30 yrs old when I started with him I did make good progress and a lot of that was due to my good natural flexibility . A good lockout helped also me so much that Fred told me that I could cut back on my benching and inclines . So from that late "start in life" in Olympic lifting I did real well for 8 years . I learned that one has to be very patient with yourself and don't expect instant results. After all being a good Oly lifter depends a lot on Ability , that is Athletic Ability and you from your videos show me you do have quite a bit !

A few days ago or was it a week or more , they had the Lumber Jack Competition on TV and that was you on there,
right ?!
                                  All the best and good luck in your training ,

                                        Dave Peterson, Michigan LWC --
                             

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Dave,
  Awesome stuff!!!  How did your pulling/squatting power transfer over to OL?  As of now, mine has not at all.  The squatting helps more.  But I've had to completely revamp my pulls.  Everything, to me, feels almost like what a stiff legged or RDL used to feel like.  And now my RDLs feel a lot different and my chest is further in front of the bar.  Weird.

  And yes, I was on the Timbersports Finals/Worlds last weekend.  I won the US championships then went to the worlds in Breinz, Switzerland. I was six points out of first going into the last event and my chain derailed on my hotsaw.  Went from 2nd to 5th as I got no points for the last events.  I had four PRs in the event, so I was very pleased with my performance.  Timbersports is the reason I OL.  Speed/explosion/power/athleticism.   I need all the above to continue improving.  And I'm very pleased with where I'm heading.

All the best,
 Arden

[DAVE PETERSON]

       
        Arden,

It did take me a while for the transition , but the biggest change from powerlifting to Olympic lifting is how much more empasis there has to be on technique . I would say at least 85 % , but some people would naturally disagree . They seem to think that if one has a big squat that they will be the best Oly lifter around and that has been proven going back to some of the best lifters , including Alexeev , Pisarenko who didn't go much higher in their squat than what they cleaned ! In Alexeev's era they were many who could out squat him , including some of his Russian team-mates , but couldn't out lift him in head to head contests ! O ne of the main things I learned from Fred was One pushes off and through the floor,therefore using your big legs until the bar reaches the top of the legs . Telling yourself to stay over the bar , keeping the shoulder angle the same until the bar gets to the top of your legs. Of course, all of these mental things are locked in before you even grab the bar. There's a lot of lifters who make the mistake of trying to think "about the lift" during the lift , it just doesn't work !!

When you are being coached at a meet , it does help to hear from the coach (from the side) ,"shoulders over the bar,keep it close and finish it " ! Some people thought it didn't help the lifter , but if it helped Fred Lowe win 8 National titles , that's good enough for me !

All the best in all you do !

Dave Peterson

[Judas]

Judas,
  I gotta tell you, I say props to a fellow who can lie down with little training and push up 365 with little or no effort.  That speaks volume to me.  You say you've put a lot into it and it is hard to give it up - I completely understand where you're coming from.  And it's not a completely meaningless lift.  Most folk who are not lifting experienced refer to the bench as the tell all of personal strength. When those of us that know, know that other lifts are a better indication of overall physical strength. 

Heh heh... but 4 plates 'anytime' would be so much better...

And it took a good 5 years to get to this point. When i started my absolute max bench was 195lbs, at 180lbs. But as far as all the big lifts go, it is the least relevant in everyday life. Its the best for testing pure upper body strength, sure, but for testing useful upper body strength i think the press or even incline bench is a better exercise. Its fun to bench more than the powerlifters though, and if i tackle weightlifting 100% it will be even more fun to bench more than most powerlifters without ever training their lift. Its already beyond cool that weightlifters are better squatters than powerlifters, generally.

I had to give up just about all ego when I went down this path about 20 months ago.  No more low bar/wide stance squats.  No supportive equipment.  No more need to pull anything over 200 kilos.  No real need to squat anything over 200 kilos.  No real need for bench at all.  No need for curls.  No need for tricep pushdowns.  No need for ever doing a calf raise ever again!!!!

Arm stuff aside, i think there is a need for just pulling some big stupid weights every now and then, and certainly squatting heavy, and a lot. When i hit my bench goal i dropped all bench more or less, cut WAY back on the heavy squats (was already squatting 195/242, i figured thats enough for now) and utterly dropped all heavy pull work. No clean or snatch deads, no deads at all. I got some good technique work in, and my olympic sessions did well for a while, but after a couple months they started to wane, and for NO reason. Squats started to feel heavy, cleans felt heavier, i felt overtrained when i absolutely KNOW i wasn't. After exhausting my usual litany ov reasons and excuses, i just started blasting the stupid squat volume again, even brought back deadlifts... like pure powerlifter style deadlifts... for sets ov 8 no doubt, and started benching heavy reps again. Until two months ago, i'd not done a SINGLE deadlift workout in over three years. Did that for 6-8 weeks, and all ov a sudden, i'm hitting snatch and clean and jerk PR's everywhere. Even when i'm not, the bar never feels heavy, confidence is up again, and basically... i've just got a huge shot ov natural test from all the lifting.

I would have thought that being able to do a perfect olympic front squat with almost 200kg i wouldn't have to do squats at all for a while, or at least till my lame-ass 138 clean catches up some. But i found out, you stop doing that heavy **** and you regress. I've now vowed to keep the squats as heavy as possible without ruining my two lifts and i'm going to actually continue doing ridiculous deadlift workouts every month or so. My actual powerlifting deadlift is very clean anyways, its almost straight enough to call a clean dead, so its not screwing me up too much. One thing i've found is that if the first pull feels heavy, then the lift wont go well. Make that first lift light and you'll be more confident throughout the lift. Ripping 500lbs for a set ov 8  makes that 300lb first pull on my cleans feel like nothing.

With all that said, I goof around every once in a while and do things I haven't done for 20 months and amazingly I'm as strong, if not stronger now, than I was when I was doing the movements twice a week.  I like to call it the "WTH" effect of proper athletic training.

I'd like to think that will happen with my bench, but it wont. I doubt it'll ever drop to the point where i couldn't push 375, but thats still 40lbs off. Not doing a single deadlift workout (reps) in over three years hasn't affected my pull one bit though, still capable ov my max i think, maybe more. Heh... and it looks better every time i do it.

   

Enjoy the ride.  I know I am. My technique is less horrible than it was 20 months ago, but it's still not beyond mediocre.  I'm working on "positive self talk."  On some of my training vids you can actually hear me scream - "I SUCK!!"  My coach reminds me to stop the negativity and say "This sucks."  I'm learning.

All the best,
 Arden

This **** beats powerlifting anyday. And the best part...??? Everyone's equal. There are no gear arguments. There are no federation squabbles. There are no arguments about standards. I watch lifters at CPU Nationals and i wonder how strong they really are, but i watch lifters at weightlifting Nationals and i KNOW how strong they are. Until very recently, i've been ov the mindset that i'd like to get my form really good, or at least good enough to utilize my strength. But the more i hear about what i'm doing wrong or what i'm capable ov because ov my size/shape or age, the more i want to really excel at my weaknesses... technique and speed. Flexibility too. My 2010 goal is utter perfection or as close to it as i can get in one year. Or at very minimum, lift in a way that no one would ever expect, looking at me.

[Judas]

       
        Arden,

It did take me a while for the transition , but the biggest change from powerlifting to Olympic lifting is how much more empasis there has to be on technique . I would say at least 85 % , but some people would naturally disagree . They seem to think that if one has a big squat that they will be the best Oly lifter around and that has been proven going back to some of the best lifters , including Alexeev , Pisarenko who didn't go much higher in their squat than what they cleaned ! In Alexeev's era they were many who could out squat him , including some of his Russian team-mates , but couldn't out lift him in head to head contests ! O ne of the main things I learned from Fred was One pushes off and through the floor,therefore using your big legs until the bar reaches the top of the legs . Telling yourself to stay over the bar , keeping the shoulder angle the same until the bar gets to the top of your legs. Of course, all of these mental things are locked in before you even grab the bar. There's a lot of lifters who make the mistake of trying to think "about the lift" during the lift , it just doesn't work !!

When you are being coached at a meet , it does help to hear from the coach (from the side) ,"shoulders over the bar,keep it close and finish it " ! Some people thought it didn't help the lifter , but if it helped Fred Lowe win 8 National titles , that's good enough for me !

All the best in all you do !

Dave Peterson

I think the biggest problem with powerlifters starting this, especially your typical one who competes in gear and the lot, is that a big OLYMPIC squat carries over well to olympic lifting. A big powerlifter squat isn't even close. In fact, i'd say it does little more for a lifter than provide strong enough legs and glutes to build a good olympic squat quicker. But the work still has to be done. When i first started thinking about weightlifting, and playing around with powersnatchs and powercleans etc. i had a solid 490lb super-wide stance, slightly breaking IPF parallel raw squat, lowbar ov course, plus a typical round-back 575lb deadlift. All that did for me was allow me to START  at a semi-almost half-decent 405 olympic squat. Even that was bent over because i had NO core. I do better than most because i always lifted raw at least, and always tried to be ballistic.

All that powerlifting **** they tell you to build a good core is just that... ****. I'd rack-pulled 800lbs and partialed near-700lbs in the squat rack, GM'ed 405lbs... i could out-ab anybody... and my core was STILL my weakness. Hell, if i was training myself how i train lifters now back then, i would have laughed that 405 olympic squat out ov the gym. Realistically, with good form, i'm thinking it would have topped out closer to 365. But... the powerlifting strength allowed my to build myself a 500lb olympic squat in just a few months at least. But few lifters would take that ego-blow and stick with it.

Obviously, the big bench (well, only 350 back then) only helps you jerk if you're doing it VERY wrong...

[Zach Wheeler]

All that powerlifting **** they tell you to build a good core is just that... ****. I'd rack-pulled 800lbs and partialed near-700lbs in the squat rack, GM'ed 405lbs... i could out-ab anybody... and my core was STILL my weakness.

I agree with this. When I started off PLing, I was always told squat and DL were enough for the core. No extra work needed. I dropped all core work for about a year. After an injury (ironically caused by a weak core), I decided to do some leg raises (I used to live by these), and after about 2 sets of 10, my core was very fatigued, a year prior this would have been a warmup.