Topic: Catapult Technique vs Triple Extension

[Patrick Bateman]

I saw the feet leave the ground, especially in the first video.

What I am putting out there is; Are the feet leaving the ground to pull the bar up higher/accelerating the bar etc etc? Or just to foot shift for the squat?
I mean  in the following videos the feet are barely leaving the ground, which makes me think the purpose of them leaving the ground is just to foot shift for the squat.

I don't think it is fair to assess a coaches training methodolgy by HIS own athletic sucesses. I mean there are some very famous coaches who only had a mediocre career themselves. Especially if he only devised this new methodolgy after watching the success of other athletes on the present day scene.
Why not see if any of the guys he is teaching this to are having any success? To me that is the real proof.

When I asked if any of his boys were having success, I didn't mean that as a smart ass quip - I was ACTUALLY asking.

If all his guys are not performing then that to me is the REAL proof. So are any of his guys good? Does anyone know?

[Chris Ⓥ LeRoux]

Are the feet leaving the ground to pull the bar up higher? Or just to foot shift for the squat?

No and no. The jump is simply a natural result of the triple extension and the feet moving to the squat position. Also, I know Donald says there should be no jump in the jerk also. Clearly Kakhi does so, unless you just want to call a jump something else, which Donald seems to do.

I don't think it is fair to acess a coaches training methodolgy by HIS own sucesses.

Either do I. That was exactly my point.

So are any of his guys good?

Absolutely. But none of them lift the way he preaches when the weight gets heavy.

Donald's logic is seriously flawed. Although he is correct that excess pulling height can be counterproductive, the idea that the optimal height is short of the point of triple extension is refuted by his own lifters.

[Patrick Bateman]

Good discussion.

As for the 'no feet leaving the ground on the jerk' - I actually missed him saying that on the youtube clip.

I noticed that on ocassion power/push jerkers don't have their feet leaving the ground, i am not sure if this is by design, or happens unintentionally. 

There is a female russian weightlifter who does this, and i think alex karapetian has done this in melborne 93.

I tried doing some push jerks like this, and it didn't feel to bad. But i suppose a push jerk is kind of an oddity.

[Chris Ⓥ LeRoux]

I only watched like 1 minute of his youtube clip. But, I have heard him talk about it before. I reject the notion the jerk can be done effectively without a jump just as I reject the assertion about the snatch and clean. It may/should be minimal and hard to see. But it will be there if it is a decent weight being lifted. Donald wishes not to call it a jump when the feet raise to the balls, leave the ground, and land flat- semantics, though I haven't heard him come up with another word for it. :)

[michael cooley]

I only watched like 1 minute of his youtube clip. But, I have heard him talk about it before. I reject the notion the jerk can be done effectively without a jump just as I reject the assertion about the snatch and clean. It may/should be minimal and hard to see. But it will be there if it is a decent weight being lifted. Donald wishes not to call it a jump when the feet raise to the balls, leave the ground, and land flat- semantics, though I haven't heard him come up with another word for it. :)

Well, for not having watched the entire YouTube clip (all 4 parts), you're taking a pretty hard line in opposition to his theory.

I agree with the poster above - a great coach was not always a great lifter, and vice versa.  They're two entirely different skill sets, so that's really not a relevant metric.

As to the theory of technique he's articulating, although his wording is sometimes poor, he's not suggesting that your feet never leave the ground.  There's always a little "jump" - at least to the extent necessary to let the feet move to the receiving position.

His point, principally, is that trying to achieve "full" extension - that is, UP on the toes with a full shrug at the top - is counterproductive.  I think his main point there is that, to the extent you're raising the bar higher at that point, you're only doing it by lifting your body higher, too, with the counterproductive result that you've now got to travel farther to bring your body back down under the bar to the receiving position.

If you look at the videos of Kakhi - he's not coming UP on the toes and engaging a full shrug at the top BEFORE starting under the bar.  Essentially, as soon as he's fully upright, he's moving his feet out and racing to the bottom.  The shrug is to pull himself down - not to pull the bar higher.  This is also why (as I understand it) Don says you keep the shoulders "loose" (probably a poor choice of words) and do not retract the scapula at the start of the pull.  That way, you're saving that last trap contraction to the end of the second pull when you use them to pull yourself down.

Just my $.02 on the interpretation of Don's theory.  I'm not saying his found the Holy Grail, but his observation are borne out by examination of how winning technique has evolved over time.

mpc

[Chris Ⓥ LeRoux]

I didn't need to see any more. The contradictions abounded in that time, and I have seen him write about it before. As far as not rising as high as possible to the toes and getting a full shrug, there is nothing original in it.

[Nick Horton]

Great discussion and thanks for the videos.   

As to the question of whether his lifters are any good.  There is NO doubt that they are.  Here's his web page for more info:  http://www.coachdonmccauley.com/

I may not be true that all of his lifters use his technique exactly when going for their top end weights.  But, that is true of all lifters with any technique.  I would be interested in a more statistical approach.  Is their technique closer to his or closer to the classical triple extension technique?  I don't know. 

But, the more I mull over the underlying ideas in his talk, the more friendly I am to them.  Not everything.  But,  a fair amount. 

I have some lifters who I think could benefit from a new approach.  So, I might have a Guinea Pig or two.

[Brooke Burkhalter]

Isn't this a prime example of what he means by catapault technique?

Kakhi Kakhiasvili in Sidney 2000
kaxi

Perepetchnov 164 Snatch super slo-mo
Perepetchnov 205kg Clean Super Slow-motion

I mean all the check points are there right?

-Start with hips low
-barely going up onto toes, and feet only just leaving the ground to foot shift so he can squat, rather then pulling the bar up higher
-sling shot under the bar super FAST
-shrugs hard to get UNDER the bar fast, rather then pulling the bar up higher

So why all the contraversy?

From what I can tell, Don McCauley is just teaching people to pull from the ground like kakhi and perepetchenov.

Hardly a bad thing. They did pretty well with it.

Admittidly, it is not considered 'coventional' technique right now.
But maybe this is the next evolution in the sport - he is teaching the art of getting under the bar lighting fast?

I suppose the proof is in the pudding - Are any of Don McCauley's guys good on the american scene (i am not familar with the american scene)?
 I know there are a lot of coaches on this forum, and people who compete, has any one come up against them? And do they end up on the podium often?

The bits i find a bit wierd are:

-starting with the bar AWAY from your shins - Is this normal?
-having shoulders LOOSE - i thought you are supposed to have them tight enough so as transmit the pulling force, but not too tight so because this will inhibit the shrug?

If you watch 99% of these guys who everyone says start with low hips and pause it when the bar leaves the ground 99% of them are at the same hip height as everyone else, above hips and knees parallel. Some of the Chinese start with lower hips and liftoff with lower hips THEN they let the hips rise faster than the shoulders (ass goes up before shoulders) which puts them back in the same pull position as everyone else.
 
Botev is one who starts with low hips and pretty much stays that way.

It seems to me that Khaki is the only one who lifts the way he does, everyone else seems to extend more INCLUDING Khaki's coach  (Grikurovi) other lifters.