Topic: Overtraining

[Andy Dick]

I found an interesting link to a chapter from the book Overtraining in Sport.  I think it has some good stuff in there. 

They did a study on squats where the subjects lifted up to 100% 1 RM on repeated attempts for 6days a week for 2 weeks and they found that they had a decrease in strength.  I only wish someone would do a follow up study that slowly worked up to consistently lifting with that much % of 1RM or lifting that many days in a row.  I think weightlifters work up to the ability to do so not jump right into it, but the researchers were trying to produce an overtrained state.  One interesting thing is they also did a similar study where they worked up to 8x1 of 95% for 5 days a week for 3 weeks on a modified type of squat and they subjects got better!  Anyways here is the link

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=7ZniNzP__5sC&oi=fnd&pg=PA107&dq=Overtraining+in+elite+athletes:+review+and+directions+for+the+future&ots=i5-uwuq-Mq&sig=adzKL2FG6S4aQSmdhVm_fG_NLzk

[Brooke Burkhalter]

I bet if they unloaded the third week and tested at the end of it or the beginning of the fourth week they would have had a nice increase in 1RM.


What is everyone's thoughts on their lifts decreasing during a training cycle? How much would you let your lifts decrease if you were doing daily max type training?

I have not heard of anyone who expects to hit their exact PR week after week and most I know go to max in the lifts at least once per week, though they may only get to 93% or 95% or whatever of their max.

[Chris Betancourt]

Throwing in some data here, it is a Soviet study of back squat improvement after 6 months for different levels of athletic mastery. They were tested for max every two months but I will just put the 6 month result.

Age: 13-14yrs
Qualification: youth - class III
50-60% 6rep/set:+10kg
70-80% 3-4rep/set: +17kg
80-90% 1-2rep/set: +8kg

Age: 15-16yrs
Qualification: class III - class II
50-60% 6rep/set:+10kg
70-80% 3-4rep/set: +13kg
80-90% 1-2rep/set: +12kg

Age: 17-20yrs
Qualification: class I - master of sport
50-60% 6rep/set:+9.5kg
70-80% 3-4rep/set: +12kg
80-90% 1-2rep/set: +9kg

[Andy Dick]

Chris, do you have a link to the article?  Also, was the 6 month increases the total increase over six month so for like the master of sport classification for the 80-90% it was +9kg, is that 9 kg from day one or 9 kg from the 4 month test?  Also, did each group only train with the percentage shown so the 80-90% group only trained with that intensity?  After each max test were the percentages readjusted for any increase in max strength (so after month 2 if the lifter increased 10kg on thier max is the 80-90% of the day 1 max or of the 2 month new max)?  Was the volume the same for each group (so since the lower intensity did more reps we will say they did a total of 2x6 reps, did the 80-90% group do 6x2 reps to keep a consistent volume)?

[Chris Betancourt]

Chris, do you have a link to the article?  Also, was the 6 month increases the total increase over six month so for like the master of sport classification for the 80-90% it was +9kg, is that 9 kg from day one or 9 kg from the 4 month test?  Also, did each group only train with the percentage shown so the 80-90% group only trained with that intensity?  After each max test were the percentages readjusted for any increase in max strength (so after month 2 if the lifter increased 10kg on thier max is the 80-90% of the day 1 max or of the 2 month new max)?  Was the volume the same for each group (so since the lower intensity did more reps we will say they did a total of 2x6 reps, did the 80-90% group do 6x2 reps to keep a consistent volume)?

No, it's not an online article it's in the Medvedyev System book. They did an experiment to figure out what the ideal fundamental weight should be in the long run for a program, I'm sure it's omitting a ton of other data but I'll try to answer you're questions with what's here. There's also the same type of experiment done with the snatch; basically showing that with more experience, higher fundamental loads should be used. This experiment shows that fundamental squat loadings should pretty much stay the same at 70-80%.

The numbers I gave were total increase from day one. Here are the results for each two months, they will be written as total improvement from day one:

Qualification: youth - class III
50-60% 6rep/set:+5kg // +7.5kg // +10kg
70-80% 3-4rep/set:+8kg // +10.5 // +17kg
80-90% 1-2rep/set:+4kg // +5kg // +8kg

Qualification: class III - class II
50-60% 6rep/set:+5kg // +8kg // +10kg
70-80% 3-4rep/set:+6kg // +10kg // +13kg
80-90% 1-2rep/set:+7kg // +9kg // +12kg

Qualification: class I - master of sport
50-60% 6rep/set:+7kg // +8kg // +9.5kg
70-80% 3-4rep/set:+2kg // +7kg // +12kg
80-90% 1-2rep/set:+1.5kg // +6kg // +9kg


Yes, the groups stuck to the percentages, each qualification had three experimental groups with their assigned percentage for six months. It doesn't say that they used the new maxes to base percentages off after each two month period but it sure does look like it based on what the data was being used for. As for the number of sets, Medvedyev talks about Prilepin's table a lot in the book so that may be what guided him in that, but that table is supposed to be only for snatch and the clean and jerk so who knows. Here's the table anyways:

% // #reps // #total reps*sets
70% // 3-6rep // 18total
80% // 2-4rep // 15total
90% // 1-2rep // 7-10total

[Andy Dick]

Thanks for the post Chris, that is very interesting stuff.  Especially when you look at the class I and master of sport category.  How the lowest percentage had the greatest initial jump.  But the 80% group had a huge jump at the 4th month.  This is me speculating but I almost wonder what it would look like if the 1st 2 months were low intensity then they jumped to the middle intensity, if that would have a larger effect.  Good to know though, but still leaves me with questions, not the perfect world I guess.  I wonder what the result would be if the volume was equal.  So in the middle and top categories if they both did 15 reps total if it would have made any difference.

For the snatch study did they use the same volume for the % and did they come up with the same sort of thing?  I don't know if I would ever try to snatch 4 reps per set at 80%, LOL

[Chris Betancourt]

Yeah, I was going to make a note of that as well regarding the lowest percentage having a high gain. My theory is since they are already very high qualification, they are squatting some serious weight pretty much all the time. Dropping the loading in the short-run (the first two months) for those athletes  lets their body de-load. Medvedyev did use the data to develop his training cycles so he probably did just that with adjusting the intensities in the final published program.

Here is the snatch data:

Qualification: youth - class III
50-60% 6rep/set:+2.5kg // +4.5kg // +7kg
70-80% 3-4rep/set:+4.5kg // +7kg // +9.5kg
80-90% 1-2rep/set:+1.5kg // +2kg // +2.5kg

Qualification: class III - class II
50-60% 6rep/set:+1.5kg // +5kg // +8kg
70-80% 3-4rep/set:+3kg // +9kg // +10kg
80-90% 1-2rep/set:+2.5kg // +4kg // +7kg

Qualification: class I - master of sport
50-60% 6rep/set:+2kg // +3kg // +5kg
70-80% 3-4rep/set:+1kg // +4.5kg // +7.5kg
80-90% 1-2rep/set:+0.5kg // +5kg // +6kg

[Andy Dick]

What is everyone's thoughts on their lifts decreasing during a training cycle? How much would you let your lifts decrease if you were doing daily max type training?

What I usually do is on my Saturday lift day I tend to try to set a new PR.  What I only attempt a new PR 3 times if I don't get it is stop.  Usually if I work towards my current 1RM and I am miss it like twice I move on.  But with me I like to go heavy because it helps give me confidence going heavy.  I am a lot less anxious why my workout calls for a weight that is heavier than I normally do in training because I know I have atleast felt it before.