Topic: Keeping the bar close to the body while going into third pull.....cues and help

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

biggest thing ive noticed didnt read enough to know if you've been told i hope by now with all these peopel watching they should have told you but JUMP YOUR FEET.

Quin,
  Agreed. I am very new to these movements. I started the power movements about 18 months ago and the full movements about 8 weeks ago.  I've found when I jump, I'm very inconsistent with my landings and I've ended up "tweaking" a knee, an ankle, and more than I care to discuss.  When I don't jump, everything is stable, controlled, and I don't get hurt.  Middle age sucks, but I'm okay with it.  I sooooo wish I would gotten into these movements 25 years ago when I started weight training regularly. 

  Thanks for the commentary.  I'm going to eventually start jumping with some vigor, but I want to get the pulls right - I've got soooooo many heavy deadlifts (conventional and sumo) in my 26 years of training that I've got a LOT of bad habits to lose in order to pull properly for someone learning to Olympic lift.  As it was explained to me a while back, my over abundance of absolute strength is actually a hinderence for learning proper technique on these movements.  It helps that I'm overly flexibile.  But I've got a LONGGG way to go.   Thanks again for those that have commented.  It means a lot to me that you've all taken the time.  I hope I can return the favor someday.

Next week, I'm going to the USAW Club Coach cert at Crossfit Potamic taught by Leo Totten and Dave Miller.  Can't wait!!!  Really hated that missed the Pittsburgh Open today.  I so wanted to be there.  As did my 11 year old daughter.  She trained last night and today.  With a lot of vigor and strength.

All the best,
 Arden

[Jim Hooper]

  I've found when I jump, I'm very inconsistent with my landings and I've ended up "tweaking" a knee, an ankle, and more than I care to discuss.  When I don't jump, everything is stable, controlled, and I don't get hurt.[/quote]

Arden,

You have great mobility for a big man of any age, much less a middle aged one, much less a middle aged one who hasn't been at this for very long.  Terrific.

Make sure you understand this "jumping the feet" business before you launch into some jump-the-feet project that ends the stable, controlled, injury-free lifting you are doing without it and exacerbates the inconsistency and injurious lifting you are experiencing when you do try to do it.

Mechanically, moving your feet serves one function:  it moves the feet from their optimum position in the propulsive/pulling phases of the lift (for most, feet under the hip joints) into their optimum position in the amortization/receiving phases (for most, feet a little wider and turned out a bit more than in their pulling configuration).  That's all it does.  That's the only reason to do it. 

Keep the foot-shift minimalist, snappy, consistent, and efficient.   Many great lifters have foot-shifts that are slight, subtle, or non-existant; others require a larger and more time-consuming movement.   Make sure you study plenty of video of lots of highly skilled, big-thick type lifters similar to you -- 105+ and 105 type guys like Ronny Weller, Shane Hamman, Pete Kelley, Stefan Botev -- those types of athletes. Notice how little foot movement they use to move under the bar, and its timing -- when they shift, and how quickly they do it.  If you are pulling from a mechanically efficient stance and moving smoothly and quickly through maximum extension into a consistent, stable receiving position, your feet are doing what they are supposed to be doing.  You're on the right track with this stuff, and have great physical and mental potential to do well.  Have fun! 

[Jack]

I know I've got a long way to go, but I think doing my snatches and cleans like this will get me more deliberate as the wonderful video link you posted.  I hope I'm getting closer?

Your session looks well organised, very efficient and non-traumatic Arden,  I think it's again a big improvement.  
The snatches and pulls look very good, already the bar often stays at the thighs up until the groin, impressive. Control is improving, things are coming together.  A very good mix of full lifts and hangs. The halting from above the knees will strengthen greatly where it counts. Incorporate some hangs with a pause at just above the knees. It will intensely train the squat under.

-start the lowering of the bar to the knees by pushing back (leading with) the hips, allowing the knees to bend, at the same time, (try to) arch in the lower back.

Good rythmn in the pulls. The top, with the extending on the feet balls and shrugging automatically perfect. Keep the bar at the thighs.

-make more use of the head as a counter weight for generating more pulling torque; at the top, keep it in line with the spine, ending up looking up, and with the head behind the hips, body in a rearward arc. A good example of what I mean is the last rep of the first set of pulls.

Sjaak

PS: I just read Jim's reply and I agree.


 

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Jim,
 Thank you so much for your kind words. 

  I give my flexibility training as much emphasis as I do my strength training.  I do two regular yoga/tai chi sessions per day.  I've found it's even more essential the older I've become.  It really helps to fight the downward slide.  At least in my eyes.

  I understand exactly where you're coming from in what you've written.  To be frank, the best I've found to date is simply shuffeling one of my feet instead of both.  I don't know if that makes sense?  But the less I move my feet, the more I feel in control. 

    And what's weird for me is that I'm finding that I can squat much deeper and in control with a very narrow stance.  I've found this extremely surprising given all the wide stance power lifting squats I've done in the past.  It's actually refreshing as the depth I can achieve from narrow stance squatting will never be questioned by any of my powerlifting buddies (irrespective of the federation  ).

   Thanks so much for your input.  I'll take it to heart and try and get some movement in my feet.  It will come in time.  I see this as the same as I do anything I've undertaken - a long term project where a lot of patience and hard work is required.  I'm all about both.

all the best,
 Arden

  I've found when I jump, I'm very inconsistent with my landings and I've ended up "tweaking" a knee, an ankle, and more than I care to discuss.  When I don't jump, everything is stable, controlled, and I don't get hurt.

Arden,

You have great mobility for a big man of any age, much less a middle aged one, much less a middle aged one who hasn't been at this for very long.  Terrific.

Make sure you understand this "jumping the feet" business before you launch into some jump-the-feet project that ends the stable, controlled, injury-free lifting you are doing without it and exacerbates the inconsistency and injurious lifting you are experiencing when you do try to do it.

Mechanically, moving your feet serves one function:  it moves the feet from their optimum position in the propulsive/pulling phases of the lift (for most, feet under the hip joints) into their optimum position in the amortization/receiving phases (for most, feet a little wider and turned out a bit more than in their pulling configuration).  That's all it does.  That's the only reason to do it. 

Keep the foot-shift minimalist, snappy, consistent, and efficient.   Many great lifters have foot-shifts that are slight, subtle, or non-existant; others require a larger and more time-consuming movement.   Make sure you study plenty of video of lots of highly skilled, big-thick type lifters similar to you -- 105+ and 105 type guys like Ronny Weller, Shane Hamman, Pete Kelley, Stefan Botev -- those types of athletes. Notice how little foot movement they use to move under the bar, and its timing -- when they shift, and how quickly they do it.  If you are pulling from a mechanically efficient stance and moving smoothly and quickly through maximum extension into a consistent, stable receiving position, your feet are doing what they are supposed to be doing.  You're on the right track with this stuff, and have great physical and mental potential to do well.  Have fun! 
[/quote]

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Sjaak,
 Thanks so much for the input.  It makes a lot of sense.  I'm really starting to understand the importance of the head in the top of the pull.  Not only does it provide a good lever, but it also starts the third pull by going up and back.  I never felt it before until today while I was doing some cleans.  I hope to upload them tonight.  I'm slowly getting it.

  With the hangs, you mention taking the bar to just above the knees - again, the importance is to keep the bar in contact with the thighs until the torso is completely erect - correct?  I hope?  That's what I'm shooting for and I wanted to make certain I'm understanding correctly.

  Thanks again for everything.

All the best,
 Arden

I know I've got a long way to go, but I think doing my snatches and cleans like this will get me more deliberate as the wonderful video link you posted.  I hope I'm getting closer?

Your session looks well organised, very efficient and non-traumatic Arden,  I think it's again a big improvement.  
The snatches and pulls look very good, already the bar often stays at the thighs up until the groin, impressive. Control is improving, things are coming together.  A very good mix of full lifts and hangs. The halting from above the knees will strengthen greatly where it counts. Incorporate some hangs with a pause at just above the knees. It will intensely train the squat under.

-start the lowering of the bar to the knees by pushing back (leading with) the hips, allowing the knees to bend, at the same time, (try to) arch in the lower back.

Good rythmn in the pulls. The top, with the extending on the feet balls and shrugging automatically perfect. Keep the bar at the thighs.

-make more use of the head as a counter weight for generating more pulling torque; at the top, keep it in line with the spine, ending up looking up, and with the head behind the hips, body in a rearward arc. A good example of what I mean is the last rep of the first set of pulls.

Sjaak

PS: I just read Jim's reply and I agree.


 

[Dave Chiu]

 

Study Scherbatis too -- his lifts are VERY efficient for a super.

Very wide starting stance, super-pelvic pop, near zero hop.

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Study Scherbatis too -- his lifts are VERY efficient for a super.

Very wide starting stance, super-pelvic pop, near zero hop.

Boy are you right about that.  I've watched a lot of his videos and what he does is phenominal.  Absolutely phenominal.

I tried some squat cleans yesterday.  Thinking of slow off the floor, explode once above knees, and keeping the bar in contact with my thighs for as long as I could.  I hope I'm making progress?  The weights were really easy - about 95 and 110 kilos.

Here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMudQKTNINI&feature=channel_page

I'm starting to think that I should just work on the things that people have advised me to do over the course of the next few months then come back with a new thread along the same lines to inquire how things are going.  Does that sound like a good idea?

My thought process is that I need to iron out the glaring things - shoulders over the bar, bar on the thighs, explode, pull under.  Then fine tune it when I have a better comprehension and somewhat pseudo motor mastery of those parts of the movements.

All the best,
 Arden
All the best,
 Arden

[Jack]

Sjaak,
 Thanks so much for the input.  It makes a lot of sense.  I'm really starting to understand the importance of the head in the top of the pull.  Not only does it provide a good lever, but it also starts the third pull by going up and back.  I never felt it before until today while I was doing some cleans.  I hope to upload them tonight.  I'm slowly getting it.

  With the hangs, you mention taking the bar to just above the knees - again, the importance is to keep the bar in contact with the thighs until the torso is completely erect - correct?  I hope?  That's what I'm shooting for and I wanted to make certain I'm understanding correctly.

  Thanks again for everything.

You're doing great Arden, your cleans look great, and they'll get better. The bar contact with the thighs until erect would be great, but in the clean, it'll be hard. Strive for as long as possible thigh contact. that'll help perfecting the pull.  You'll find your own best pull, but universal mechanical rules apply to us all. If you watch todays vids in a few months time, you'll be amazed at the progress you've made. Like you mentioned, patience and hard work. Your session looks very efficient. Hey a jerk! Nice pulls!

Sjaak