Topic: Keeping the bar close to the body while going into third pull.....cues and help

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Hello All,
  I'm having a difficult time keeping the bar close to my body as I'm moving into the third pull.

  For way of background, I'm an Olympic lifting Newbie that didn't start performing the full squat movements until about 8 weeks ago.  I have performed the power movements on a regular basis for about a year up until after ECG's Gold Cup.  I was introduced to this site by Coaches Randy Hauer and Dave Miller (both of whom live over 8 hours from me).

   In any event, having converted from the power movements to the full squat movements has been difficult.  But I'm getting there.  I'm starting to get my shoulders over the bar better and I'm starting to keep my elbows out and straight throughout the 1st and 2nd pulls.

   My problems comes with the third pull.  I know that one is to think - "high elbows."  But when I do that, I tend to bend my arms prematurely or during the 2nd pull.  When I don't think high elbows, I don't bend my arms and keep my elbows out, but I sort of loop the bar out in front of me and have to pull it back to receive  it - making a big C (depending upon your perspective) with the bar path from the top of the second pull til I get into the receiving position.

   My purpose in starting this thread is to try and get some "cues" or help in engraining the concept of high elbows as I'm going into the third pull - or keeping the bar close to my  body as I'm going into the third pull and down into the recieving postion. I'm simply not getting it at all right now.  And it's very frustrating to me.

   Any thoughts and guidance would be much appreciated.

All the best,
 Arden

[Paul LaDuke]

Arden,

I don't think you really have to worry about keeping close to the bar during the 3rd pull.  It is very important during the 2nd pull because the athlete can transfer much more force from the ground to the hands.  A great lifter will always have the bar over the center of the foot during the 1st and 2nd pulls.  But since no force is really being transfered to the bar during the 3rd pull (aka squat under phase) it isn't important to keep the bar close.  I would change your focus to keeping the bar close to the body during the 1st and 2nd pulls and make sure I am catching the bar in a tight, upright position.  If you are doing those things, then I wouldn't worry about body position releative to the bar during the 3rd pull.

Take a look at the video on Youtube and see how far the bar is from the body during that phase of the lift in the elite lifters. 

[ryankyle]

Arden,
     Jump up and jump down hasn't failed me yet.  Once they learn how to lift I drop the jump up part and just worry about jumping down.  It sounds like you may be focusing too much on it.  Just relax, forget you have hands.  Only worry about moving your body up then down. 
Ryan
P.S. remember to introduce yourself in Pittsburgh this weekend.

[Dave Chiu]

Good advice.

When you really cock and pop as the bar comes up the lap and off the hip, the action makes a reaction that really takes your "neck to the bar".  Think of it that way rather than bar-to-neck.

Another way that works for many is to keep the elbows above the hands most of the way up, but draw them back rather than outward, whipping them upward rather than inward to secure the bar into your shldr rack.

Stephan Botev was very much a good example of this.

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Paul,
  I understand where you're coming from, but my problem is more about bumping the bar. I think? 

here's a session early on where I'm working on trying to keep my elbows straight during the second pull - long way to go yet, I know, but the reverse "C" in the bar path is pretty evident in these videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUxPpFo5fyY&feature=channel_page

here's a session where I'm actively thinking high elbows and bending my arms early.  I injured my left wrist on the first rep with 165 and got angry and started power snatching after that.  So ignore the reps in the latter part of the session.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3UHhuh06pQ&feature=channel_page

Here's a session after the wrist injury (yesterday actually) where I'm going very light and trying to keep the bar close to me.  The best rep, I thought, was the 1st rep on the second set with the red plates.  I know I'm pulling from a box, but i'm improvising and trying to train around the wrist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtVxVsgsGxY&feature=channel_page

I'm looking for any help on this I can get - I know I've got a long way to go and I'm slowly getting the idea.  My goal is to be as technically proficient as possible before even thinking about putting a lot of weight on the bar.

All the best,
 Arden

Arden,

I don't think you really have to worry about keeping close to the bar during the 3rd pull.  It is very important during the 2nd pull because the athlete can transfer much more force from the ground to the hands.  A great lifter will always have the bar over the center of the foot during the 1st and 2nd pulls.  But since no force is really being transfered to the bar during the 3rd pull (aka squat under phase) it isn't important to keep the bar close.  I would change your focus to keeping the bar close to the body during the 1st and 2nd pulls and make sure I am catching the bar in a tight, upright position.  If you are doing those things, then I wouldn't worry about body position releative to the bar during the 3rd pull.

Take a look at the video on Youtube and see how far the bar is from the body during that phase of the lift in the elite lifters. 

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Arden,
     Jump up and jump down hasn't failed me yet.  Once they learn how to lift I drop the jump up part and just worry about jumping down.  It sounds like you may be focusing too much on it.  Just relax, forget you have hands.  Only worry about moving your body up then down. 
Ryan
P.S. remember to introduce yourself in Pittsburgh this weekend.

Ryan,
 I love "jump up and jump down."  I'll try that.  And yes, you are correct, I am over analyzing. 

 Unfortunately, I won't be able to make it to Pittsburgh this weekend.  My 11 year old has been training and I'd really like to bring her, but we, as a family, got behind on a bunch of stuff and we need the time to get a bunch of things accomplished.  I hate it.  I'm hoping to get her up for session with Coach Rege very soon.  My sister lives near Gathersburg, so I hope I can get her out to one of Jamie's meets this spring/early summer.

All the best,
 Arden

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Dave,
 Thanks so much for that - that "cock/pop/neck to the bar" sounds perfect for the clean.  I like it.

  What about the snatch?  Any similar cues?

All the best,
 Arden

Good advice.

When you really cock and pop as the bar comes up the lap and off the hip, the action makes a reaction that really takes your "neck to the bar".  Think of it that way rather than bar-to-neck.

Another way that works for many is to keep the elbows above the hands most of the way up, but draw them back rather than outward, whipping them upward rather than inward to secure the bar into your shldr rack.

Stephan Botev was very much a good example of this.

[Jack]

Hi Arden, I hope I won't clutter things up here, but you're doing great. Your "C" path at the top of your pull is evident in some lifts, like you say. It originates, imo, from earlier in the lift. When watching from the side, the bar is deviating from the "best path" too early, going forward, having to come back again too much. The squatting under is slow, necessitating more arm pulling again, compounding the rearward "C" movement of the bar at the top. Maybe the "high" hangs compound the problem too, at this stage. But, your form is still very good for 8 weeks practice. It's better than mine was at that time.

Try to keep bar contact with the thighs as long as possible, postponing the "explosion" and keeping the bar from going forward too much, and try for a fast squat under, not necessarily earlier, that is, don't cut the pull short. You could replace the "high" hang with hang snatches from just above the knee, and force yourself to drag the bar up the thigh from that point, and practice the squatting under.

Still, I think all you need is time.

Sjaak