Topic: Snatch Elbow Dislocation

[Brooke Burkhalter]

Dave,

Not trying to be argumentative but where do you hear the Chinese push their athletes to the breaking point consistently?

I would imagine they push their athletes no more than the other countries who win. In fact, I would imagine the coaches probably do not have to push the athletes as much as they have to reign them in. Weightlifting is a lot of those folks way to a better life. I would be willing to bet that they are not pushed as hard or forced to participate when injured as much as those in say American high school or NCAA football.

Like most sports it probably takes that push and drive whether it comes from the coach or athlete to succeed at the world level.

[Chris Betancourt]

Dave,

Not trying to be argumentative but where do you hear the Chinese push their athletes to the breaking point consistently?

I would imagine they push their athletes no more than the other countries who win. In fact, I would imagine the coaches probably do not have to push the athletes as much as they have to reign them in. Weightlifting is a lot of those folks way to a better life. I would be willing to bet that they are not pushed as hard or forced to participate when injured as much as those in say American high school or NCAA football.

Like most sports it probably takes that push and drive whether it comes from the coach or athlete to succeed at the world level.

They try to max nearly every time they lift. Check out this blog: http://lifthard.com/ The guy who writes it, Kirksman, is coached by one of the best Chinese 69kg weightlifter in Malaysia and wrote a few articles detailing the Chinese philosophy of weightlifting training. Here is his youtube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/kirksman

[Dave Almeida]

Brooke, I am certain that what I posted before is accurate coming from a former top China team member whose career was ended by a forced attempt after he was already hurt.  Another example is all the back surgeries the Chinese team has (Guozheng, Xiangxiang not to mention Shi zhiyong who had to retire because of a serious back injury and that is just the olympic team this past year).

You are delusional if you think you make it to the top of the podium in the Olympic games and are not pushed harder than NCAA athletes in the USA. If you want evidence, go to youtube and look at the video of Shi Zhiyong arguing with his coach. His coach basically is calling him a little girl and berating him to quit if he can't put up with the extreme back pain he is suffering through. This is also the coach that has coached him since he was 13 or so and is probably similar to a father figure to him. There is no remorse in these systems no matter how successful you have been in the past.

Have you read Suleymanoglu's biography? If not, you should... It will put the idea of hard work into perspective.  The "dark days" as it is put in the book, when he was about 16 years old, he would train for 8-10 hours a day and be in so much pain he could barely sleep. Granted most can't train that hard today because of OOC testing but they are still training very hard.

[Guy Greavette]

I was one of the Canadian Coaches at the 2000 World Universities in Montreal and many may not know this but the bar was loaded incorrectly for the Chinese girls attempt. There was more weight I believe on the side of the dislocation. Even though there was not a big difference in weight (1.25kg), this could have caused the dislocation. There were a number of elbow dislocations at the 1999 & 2003 World Championships and this could be attributed to the high number of athletes (1999 - 626, 2003 - 505) and the fact that they were Olympic Qualifiers. I believe that due to the 1kg rule in our sport that there is potential for many more elbow dislocations as athletes will tend to start higher and take smaller increases. One only has to be off slightly in technique and/or not being in top condition for this to happen at such a high level. I also believe that certain body types are more prone to this injury if technique is performed poorly.

[ryankyle]

All:
    The formula is simple - Find all the athletes you can, teach them to lift, try to lift more today than yesterday, the less talented fall by the wayside while the genetic best get gold medals.  I read the other day that only 3% of college football players make it to the pro's and only 22 of those become all-pro.  These people aren't all-pro because they have the secret formula, they are that good because of extremely hard work and superior gifts - the end.  It works the same in weightlifting.  China is good because they work the hardest.  Bulgaria was the best in the 80's because they worked the hardest.  Believe it or not there are genetic marvels not playing football or any other traiditonal American sport that can really train as hard as the rest of the world drug free if only given the opportunity.  For further proof see Paul Dohery's article in Milo this month.  The secret is simple, find them, train them, make them lift more, and the strong will win.
Ryan

[Tom Sherwood]

Ryan-
 I AGREE. Tara Nott Cheryl Haworth Wes Barnett Shane Hamman Oscar chaplin Kendrick Farris. All can or have won medals.
Out of maybe I dont know 100-200 senior level lifters on average that are competing in USAW?

Yes it is very simple. I dont care what anyone says more numbers=more top10's and more medals. period.

[Brooke Burkhalter]

Dave -

Like I said, not trying to be argumentative I simply feel many bag on the Chinese as if they totally inhumane or all loaded on some super roid no one else can find.

From the athletes I have talked to under Chinese coaches they are not pushed to the point of injury, they will not go to max unless reasonably sure they are in good health and that their form is on for that day. I am sure SOME coaches from China have pushed their athletes to the point of injury, stupid coach, happens in many different sports from many different countries.

I have seen Nick Saban (Alabama football coach) and many other head football coaches berate athletes on a daily basis, i.e. calling them a p***y little girl and on and on. What is different in that and what the Chinese coach said to Shi?
 
Chaz Ramsey is suing Auburn University because they pushed him into practicing before he was healed from back surgery and he kept getting hurt. They berated him for it in front of the other players and told the other players not to talk to him and to stay away from and have nothing to do with him, because he was weak and would not practice while hurt, etc.  Of course he was not completely healed and really was not being weak they were just being dicks and now it has ruined his chances of ever playing again most likely.

Is it not pretty often, that here in the US, an athlete dies each summer because some dumbass coach ran him literally to death in the heat..... 

I have no doubt that the daily grind at that level is brutal hence Zhang and Shi's injuries but is it really any different than any other sport at the very top?

It just seems to me everyone lumps these programs into the ruin athlete category but every world class coach is not as brutal as Abadjiev.

[Dave Almeida]

Brooke I'm taking this to PM because we are getting off topic for the thread and I don't want to offend anyone with my opinions on varsity college coaches from my first hand experience playing under them.

What I will say, and I will elaborate on it more in my PM, is that elite weightlifters are pushed harder over the course of the year than football players are. Intense competition combined with an overuse injury or weakness in the elbow = risk for elbow dislocation when trying to save a max lift with all that adrenaline.