Author Topic: Doping and the IWF: Lessons from Bulgaria  (Read 3193 times)

Offline Chris Ⓐ LeRoux

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Re: Doping and the IWF: Lessons from Bulgaria
« Reply #16 on: Jan 01, 2009, 01:33 PM »
Quote from: Dave
Good coaching, good drugs, and a good reward system for elite athletes and you have a weightlifting team that will compete internationally. Remove one of those variables and it is impossible. Recruiting is important, but if you don't have those other three variables in place the athletes won't make it no matter how many you bring into the sport.

I agree mostly but a college scholarship program even the size of say college wrestling (pretty small these days I think) would have a big impact. With numbers we won't reach the dopers level but we will significantly increase our depth, which is sorely lacking, and thereby increase competition and performance somewhat as well. We would place higher at worlds somewhat and this would bring more incentives/rewards somewhat. I think it is a good goal and tied with some major breakthrough in the doping front (which seems unlikely), we would be competitive.
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Offline Mike Wittmer

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Re: Doping and the IWF: Lessons from Bulgaria
« Reply #17 on: Jan 01, 2009, 02:20 PM »
Even if one thousand new great athletes were to come to weightlifting in the USA, there is very little means for them to win an Olympic gold medal. It is impossible with the current drug testing, coaching and reward system. You would be recruiting great athletes into weightlifting in a country that cannot develop them to compete with international level competition and would therefore be wasting their athletic ability that could have made them money in another sport if they truly are that gifted physically. So my argument is until those three variables get taken care of, recruiting potential elite athletes into this sport is just letting them waste away unless this sport is the one they really love and get the most joy out of compared to the rest. We have some damn good athletes in weightlifting yet they can't even compete in the same sessions as the best lifters from other countries. Why is that? Until that is solved recruiting is irrelevant in my opinion.

Dave, I don't know if we even have an argument, maybe it is a chicken or the egg thing.  Some time ago, I read that China tested 100,000 kids at a province, and selected 70 for the local weightlifting school.  Can you imagine if we did something similar?  Do you not think if you had that kind of pool to select from we would not have some great weightlifters?  I'm not saying we'd win all the medals, but maybe a few and surely we'd be more competitive than today.  Look at Oscar Chaplin?  What if we had 20 like him?  Do you think they are not out there?  How many great high school running backs are there, 5'5" to 5'9", 160-190 lbs., that never make it to a college program in football, but would be very good, if not great, lifters?  How about lineman 6'0" 220-240 lbs that are "too small"?  There are probably 20 in most states.  Maybe 19 wear down or get injured as Oscar did, but perhaps one slips through the cracks and gets an Olympic medal.  Recall that Oscar won a junior world championship. 

I would also point out programs from small towns that have produced champions.  Marty Schnorf had two (Curt White and Stewart Thornborgh out of Charleston Illinois.  Kyle Peirce had two, Kedrick and Cody Gibbs.  That was out of Shreveport.  Dennis Snethen, St. Joseph Missouri, produced two Olympians, Pete Kelly and Wes Barnett.  Ted Frank developed two out of Belleville, Illinois, Tom Stock and Derrick Crass.  And those are just small towns.  What if we had fifty programs, or two hundred, like them throughout the country? 

Sure, we need everything you mentioned.  Great coaching, drug testing, incentives, no question they are necessary.  But, even if we had all that, there are not enough guys for the great coaches to coach. 

I still maintain that college is key.  We need kids that will take up the sport at an early age and stick with it.  They might if a college education is possible.  I know people that spend $5-12k a YEAR on their kids youth hockey.  I know someone with an eight year old that will spend $8k this "season," which is practically year round with clinics and such.  Well, they're "hoping for a college scholarship."  Do the math, ten years at $8K, there's your college, but that's another issue.  Point is, college motivates parents, and therefore, kids.

Anyway, good and interesting discussion.  I won't beat this dead horse anymore.

Offline Chris Ⓐ LeRoux

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Re: Doping and the IWF: Lessons from Bulgaria
« Reply #18 on: Jan 01, 2009, 02:26 PM »
Quote from: Mike
But, even if we had all that, there are not enough guys for the great coaches to coach. 

Agreed but I will add not only do we not have enough talent for the coaches we have where we have them but we don't have enough coaches and facilities in enough locations.
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Offline Dave Almeida

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Re: Doping and the IWF: Lessons from Bulgaria
« Reply #19 on: Jan 01, 2009, 04:29 PM »
  My argument is simply from a medal winning perspective. Would more athletes makes us more competitive? Of course, but how much more competitive I don't know. It won't make non drug users capable of competing with drug users, thats for sure.

  There is no incentive for any talented athlete to become a weightlifter in the USA. I don't even mean from a monetary perspective. The USAW has no athletes to promote to the public that garner national attention. It isn't like Matthias Steiner on television in Germany plastered all over the news for winning a gold medal and doing interviews left and right on talk shows. What can we advertise? Oh we had two male Olympians and no medals and we haven't won an Olympic medal in decades. That is a major warning flag for any talented athlete or any parent of a young talented athlete. Why not send their 5'5" athletic child into wrestling where we are more competitive and there is potential in college? And I agree that college scholarships would help quite a bit in keeping athletes in the sport. However, that doesn't seem like it will happen anytime soon with the likely closing down of NMU after this year.
  This is why I personally believe that until an athlete or two wins a medal and garners national attention, there will not be a large influx of talented weightlifters, no matter how hard the USAW promotes itself. Parents of a 12 year old with major athletic talent that is looking around for a sport has no incentive to choose weightlifting which is why most weightlifting athletes (weightlifting is their sole sport) that start young come from weightlifting families. So 19 of those 20 Oscar Chaplins will continue to go on to play football and baseball.
  I know everyone wants weightlifting to be a big popular sport in the USA, but there needs to be a reason for it to be popular with the general public and in the USA with regards to Olympic sports, that usually means success.

Offline Michael Cayton

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Re: Doping and the IWF: Lessons from Bulgaria
« Reply #20 on: Jan 02, 2009, 08:37 AM »
   Let me say first regarding the postings of the last few days in response to my original posting , “Doping and the IWF,” that I totally appreciate the feedback. All of it -- pro, con, and in-the-middle. It helps me get a better appreciation of the opinions and attitudes of US lifters and participants. And I think the discussion is good for the sport. I hope we get a lot more.
   Regarding the effects of doping, before I came to Bulgaria I had no particular views about it except what I had come across from time to time in newspapers and magazines. But here I have  talked extensively with people who have first-hand experience -- former Olympic and world champions from the glory days of Bulgarian lifting.  You might think they would want to downplay the importance of ‘medicaments,’ just to keep their own reputations more solid. But no, in my discussions I have never run across the Pete George opinion, namely that the performance-enhancement from doping is largely a placebo effect (I think Pete used to claim that ALL the benefits were a placebo effect).  I would say that the predominant idea here is more like:  the physical effect of doping is so important that you have to be a doper to have a serious shot at winning medals in world and Olympic championships.
   Very probably there IS some placebo effect, one which varies from person to person. But let’s not forget that the E. Germans made huge successes with their doping programs in swimming when the swimmers did NOT EVEN KNOW what they were taking.  And I guarantee you also that the IOC and others would by no means have finally embarked on an expensive and difficult anti-doping campaign unless they had been totally convinced that doping had become a MAJOR factor in sports performance.
   And even if the placebo effect is strong in many cases, that STILL means that the dopers have a big advantage -- they get not only the physical performance benefits from the ‘medicaments,’ but also the placebo effect, that is, the additional confidence that comes from the knowledge of those benefits.
   Anyway, to summarize, I have come around to the following viewpoint. Steroids, and probably other drugs, enable athletes’ bodies to recover and to build muscle way faster and therefore enable athletes to train much harder than otherwise would be possible. So drugs helped make it possible for athletes not only to withstand but to continue to make big gains in the very high-pressure, intense, and frequent workouts that were the hallmark of big-time Bulgarian weightlifting, especially under Abadjiev. Even with drugs, the achievements almost certainly would not have come without the great intensity of those workouts. But without the drugs, the intensity probably would not have been physically possible. It is the combination that was effective.
   So my opinion is that a more drug-free environment world-wide would help US lifters in at least 3 respects: 1)  the obvious point is that there would be fewer lifters overall who would be getting physical AND mental (placebo) advantages from performance-enhancing drugs, which will obviously help currently clean lifters in all countries; 2)  the Abadjiev kind of super-intensive training, which I think in any case may not good for the long-term health of athletes, might simply not be sustainable, so even champions might come to have something like a more normal lifestyle; 3) maybe the most important point is exactly what Chris and others have pointed out, namely that it would remove the heavy ‘Discouragement Factor’ which cannot help but affect current and PROSPECTIVE US lifters who are staying clean: how hard are you going  to train if you feel like you don’t have a real shot at medals?
   To me it is really depressing to think that we simply do not have any idea as to what the distribution of lifting medals might have been over the last 40 years if there had been no doping. There might well have been champions that we have never heard of, lifters who simply decided not to give it a serious shot because of the Discouragement Factor. And, of course, in a clean lifting world some of our current US lifters might well already have racked up international medals.
   Btw, you shouldn’t think that all Bulgarians are, or were, big doping supporters. A good friend of mine here is a masters lifter who has competed since 1951(!), which is maybe a world record in itself.  Years ago he served as a dentist for the national lifting team. But he was dropped from that post and banned from the training hall -- because he was heard to criticize the doping practices. He is very bitter about what he thinks doping has done to the sport.

Offline Mike Wittmer

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Re: Doping and the IWF: Lessons from Bulgaria
« Reply #21 on: Jan 02, 2009, 09:23 AM »
   Let me say first regarding the postings of the last few days in response to my original posting , “Doping and the IWF,” that I totally appreciate the feedback. All of it -- pro, con, and in-the-middle. It helps me get a better appreciation of the opinions and attitudes of US lifters and participants. And I think the discussion is good for the sport. I hope we get a lot more.
   Regarding the effects of doping, before I came to Bulgaria I had no particular views about it except what I had come across from time to time in newspapers and magazines. But here I have  talked extensively with people who have first-hand experience -- former Olympic and world champions from the glory days of Bulgarian lifting.  You might think they would want to downplay the importance of ‘medicaments,’ just to keep their own reputations more solid. But no, in my discussions I have never run across the Pete George opinion, namely that the performance-enhancement from doping is largely a placebo effect (I think Pete used to claim that ALL the benefits were a placebo effect).  I would say that the predominant idea here is more like:  the physical effect of doping is so important that you have to be a doper to have a serious shot at winning medals in world and Olympic championships.
   Very probably there IS some placebo effect, one which varies from person to person. But let’s not forget that the E. Germans made huge successes with their doping programs in swimming when the swimmers did NOT EVEN KNOW what they were taking.  And I guarantee you also that the IOC and others would by no means have finally embarked on an expensive and difficult anti-doping campaign unless they had been totally convinced that doping had become a MAJOR factor in sports performance.
   And even if the placebo effect is strong in many cases, that STILL means that the dopers have a big advantage -- they get not only the physical performance benefits from the ‘medicaments,’ but also the placebo effect, that is, the additional confidence that comes from the knowledge of those benefits.
   Anyway, to summarize, I have come around to the following viewpoint. Steroids, and probably other drugs, enable athletes’ bodies to recover and to build muscle way faster and therefore enable athletes to train much harder than otherwise would be possible. So drugs helped make it possible for athletes not only to withstand but to continue to make big gains in the very high-pressure, intense, and frequent workouts that were the hallmark of big-time Bulgarian weightlifting, especially under Abadjiev. Even with drugs, the achievements almost certainly would not have come without the great intensity of those workouts. But without the drugs, the intensity probably would not have been physically possible. It is the combination that was effective.
   So my opinion is that a more drug-free environment world-wide would help US lifters in at least 3 respects: 1)  the obvious point is that there would be fewer lifters overall who would be getting physical AND mental (placebo) advantages from performance-enhancing drugs, which will obviously help currently clean lifters in all countries; 2)  the Abadjiev kind of super-intensive training, which I think in any case may not good for the long-term health of athletes, might simply not be sustainable, so even champions might come to have something like a more normal lifestyle; 3) maybe the most important point is exactly what Chris and others have pointed out, namely that it would remove the heavy ‘Discouragement Factor’ which cannot help but affect current and PROSPECTIVE US lifters who are staying clean: how hard are you going  to train if you feel like you don’t have a real shot at medals?
   To me it is really depressing to think that we simply do not have any idea as to what the distribution of lifting medals might have been over the last 40 years if there had been no doping. There might well have been champions that we have never heard of, lifters who simply decided not to give it a serious shot because of the Discouragement Factor. And, of course, in a clean lifting world some of our current US lifters might well already have racked up international medals.
   Btw, you shouldn’t think that all Bulgarians are, or were, big doping supporters. A good friend of mine here is a masters lifter who has competed since 1951(!), which is maybe a world record in itself.  Years ago he served as a dentist for the national lifting team. But he was dropped from that post and banned from the training hall -- because he was heard to criticize the doping practices. He is very bitter about what he thinks doping has done to the sport.


Thanks for the input.

Offline Paul LaDuke

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Re: Doping and the IWF: Lessons from Bulgaria
« Reply #22 on: Jan 02, 2009, 09:57 AM »
I think the worst part of doping is the systematic doping of athletes by the governing body itself such as what happened in East Germany.  I don't think the average American understands the problem with systematic doping based on many conversations I have had with friends and colleagues.  The average American looks at steroid use as a moral choice the athlete makes.   They are okay with the false idea that the athletes who dope have weighed the options and the pros and cons of steroid use and they choose to dope.  The Americans don't think it is the right choice, but they understand that they chance to win an Olympic medal or a World Championship places pressure and great desire on the athlete to succeed and therefore they can understand the desire to dope.  But this scenario is rarely the true situation IMHO.  In many countries with a national sports agency that identifies elite athletes or potential athletes at a very early age, the athletes don't get the chance to make a moral choice.  Once identified, the athlete becomes a ward of the state and the athlete's family reaps the benefits.  Perform well in competition, the family gets rewarded.  Perform poorly, your family and you could end up back where you started - poor!  Take these pills and perform even better, don't take these pills and your back living in poverty.  Many of these young athletes don't ever have the chance to make the moral decision of whether to dope or not.  The average American doesn't understand this lack of freedom in other countries because we don't ever face such attrocities.  I firmly believe that the IOC needs to continue to fight the battle of anti-doping and become even more stringent and levy even bigger fines so that doping becomes much harder to do.

I may be an idealist, but to turn a blind eye to the problem of doping is simply wrong. 
Paul LaDuke, MSS, CSCS, ATC, USAW Club Coach
Lower Dauphin School District
Hummelstown, PA

Offline ryankyle

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Re: Doping and the IWF: Lessons from Bulgaria
« Reply #23 on: Jan 02, 2009, 11:20 AM »
     I think one of the best reasons for having an anti-doping campaign is because cleaning up the sport not only helps improve integrity but also force coaches to have some original thinking.  Reading the biography on Naim Suleymanoglu this seems it was apparent during the coaching tenure of Abadjiev.  Everytime the doping tests got better his system changed.  Through the 1970's before real doping controls were put into place his system was next to impossible to train with.  The athletes lifted very high volumes on snatch, clean and jerk, both squats, pulls, power jerks, power cleans, power snatches, and rack jerks. 
     During the 1980's testing came about - crude as it was by today's standards - and he changed his system.  His athletes began to get injured so he dropped the power cleans, power snatches, pulls, power jerks and rack jerks, reduced the volume of training but increased the intensity and added more sessions.  Reading the example of the 1986 training you can see this was the case.
      Then in 1989 he was released from the team but came back as technical director of the Turkish Team in 1996.  By now drug testing had evolved further and of course so did his system.  He was down to 3 exercises and about 2 sessions a day during the heavier periods.  He decided to train on only what was necessary but to push it as hard as possible.  This style of training is hard but manageable even by clean athletes provided they have adequate recovery methods.  I believe doing heavy singles is much easier to do and make gains on for the "clean" athlete than is doing 500-600 repetitions per week and so on. 
      The point is that while these athletes were most likely still using something that was considered to be a performance-enhancer without drug testing the training system of Abadjiev would have had no reason to evolve.  This is why I believe that very good results are still possible without drugs.  A 275kg clean and jerk?  Maybe not, but I would not rule out 250 or 260.  If Shane can do 237.5 after 8 years of training with a late start then someone brought up through a system, like the Chinese or former Bulgarian systems, could certainly do 250.  We need drug testing to keep the sport dignified but also to ensure that the evolution of training systems does not come to stand still. 

Ryan