Author Topic: Doping and the IWF: Lessons from Bulgaria  (Read 3259 times)

Offline Mike Wittmer

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Re: Doping and the IWF: Lessons from Bulgaria
« Reply #8 on: Jan 01, 2009, 12:03 PM »
Mike,
     By posting that I was not excusing drug use or saying that it doesn't exist.  What I am saying is that before we look at drug use we should first look at ourselves and ask if we are doing all we can to be the best.  Comparing the results of this years Senior Nationals to the world records as per 1969 - matching classes as close as possible for instance 67.5 vs. 69kg - No lifter would have exceeded the world record biathlon total of 1969 (I had subtracted the press to get the total)  Taking into account the Pan-Am team only Kendrick Farris would have exceed the world record total in his class.  
    
     My point is we need to look at the results and say we can get there too, not we need to get within 10% and use roids as an excuse for not getting closer.  There are plenty of super strong people in the U.S. who could draw a bead on the world records weightlifting needs to do a better job of finding them.  

I understand that was a quote from one of the greatest lifters ever.  I enjoy the history of weightlifting as much as anyone.  However, comparing the '40s, '50s, 60s, when we were a weightlifting power, to today is not even like comparing apples and oranges.  Maybe apples and fish.

If one looks at old world championship results you would find a very limited number of competitors.  Very limited.  Even in the '70s, same thing, sometimes less than ten supers.  There was just no depth compared to today, a lot of today's countries did not exist back then.

Our problem, (more than international drug use) as always, is numbers.  We need to expose the sport to more young kids and find a way to keep them.  I think college scholarships are a must, as many potential weightlifters are lost to the scholarship chase. 

Offline ryankyle

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Re: Doping and the IWF: Lessons from Bulgaria
« Reply #9 on: Jan 01, 2009, 12:23 PM »
Our problem, (more than international drug use) as always, is numbers.  We need to expose the sport to more young kids and find a way to keep them.  I think college scholarships are a must, as many potential weightlifters are lost to the scholarship chase. 

Mike,
     I agree 100%.  IMO, the OTC is a miserable failure.  The idea is good - bring together the best lifters to train together - however to bring them together and make them all listen to the same person is not - we do not have a coach with Ivan Abadjiev credentials.  All U.S. lifters come from different backgrounds, brought up training a certain way and then to take them at 18 or older after years of training with someone and have them follow a new coach is illogical.  I believe during Soviet training camps, the lifters followed their own routines and spent much of the year training in their home towns.
    What would be better is to use OTC money to provide scholarships to athletes - more like tuition vouchers - to allow them to pick where they would like to go to school, train where they want to train with who they want to train with.  They could still have totals they would have to achieve in order to keep the voucher.  This would also cut costs on paying coaches, I'm sure the money spent on the coaches at the OTC and NMU could go a long way to providing additional funding to athletes.  After all who knows the lifters better than their own coaches?   
     Also, our lifters need to do better at international contests, especially the world championships.  Attached is a data table that shows the rather dismal performances at the worlds of late.  It shows their best total in a domestic contest vs. their total at the worlds, the difference and also the effect it had or did not have on placing.  If we even want to begin to hang with the big boys this area plus increased recruits needs to be addressed.

Ryan

Offline Mike Wittmer

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Re: Doping and the IWF: Lessons from Bulgaria
« Reply #10 on: Jan 01, 2009, 12:35 PM »
Our problem, (more than international drug use) as always, is numbers.  We need to expose the sport to more young kids and find a way to keep them.  I think college scholarships are a must, as many potential weightlifters are lost to the scholarship chase. 

Mike,
     I agree 100%.  IMO, the OTC is a miserable failure.  The idea is good - bring together the best lifters to train together - however to bring them together and make them all listen to the same person is not - we do not have a coach with Ivan Abadjiev credentials.  All U.S. lifters come from different backgrounds, brought up training a certain way and then to take them at 18 or older after years of training with someone and have them follow a new coach is illogical.  I believe during Soviet training camps, the lifters followed their own routines and spent much of the year training in their home towns.
    What would be better is to use OTC money to provide scholarships to athletes - more like tuition vouchers - to allow them to pick where they would like to go to school, train where they want to train with who they want to train with.  They could still have totals they would have to achieve in order to keep the voucher.  This would also cut costs on paying coaches, I'm sure the money spent on the coaches at the OTC and NMU could go a long way to providing additional funding to athletes.  After all who knows the lifters better than their own coaches?   
     Also, our lifters need to do better at international contests, especially the world championships.  Attached is a data table that shows the rather dismal performances at the worlds of late.  It shows their best total in a domestic contest vs. their total at the worlds, the difference and also the effect it had or did not have on placing.  If we even want to begin to hang with the big boys this area plus increased recruits needs to be addressed.

Ryan


I've been told that there is not much USOC (OTC) money these days.  I agree that the money could be better spent.

Offline Dave Almeida

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Re: Doping and the IWF: Lessons from Bulgaria
« Reply #11 on: Jan 01, 2009, 12:43 PM »
   The numbers issue is not an excuse for our international ranking as a country. Bulgaria has never had more than 4-5 thousand lifters. Despite what people think it is not that popular of a sport over there. Why would it be? Very hard work, need to take drugs, no monetary support. Even Russia's numbers have dropped off a ton. I spoke to a former lifter who is now in his mid 30's that was raised in Medvedyev's sports school and he said powerlifting and bodybuilding overwhelm weightlifting as far as numbers go in Russia and there is very little monetary support for the weightlifters there either just like the USA. They literally need to find sponsors from former athletes that struck it big in the oil industry or to make money winning olympic / world medals to supplement their minimal stipends from the sports agency. The money for olympic medals is usually pretty good. It won't make them rich for life but it is a nice paycheck at a young age. From what I've read this is typically the norm in most countries.
  Also, I'll keep repeating this example over and over again, Georgia always produces good lifters and they can't even train in Georgia because they don't have the funds to build a proper weightlifting facility. They train in Poland and I doubt there are more weightlifters in Georgia than there are in the USA.
  Good coaching, good drugs, and a good reward system for elite athletes and you have a weightlifting team that will compete internationally. Remove one of those variables and it is impossible. Recruiting is important, but if you don't have those other three variables in place the athletes won't make it no matter how many you bring into the sport.

Offline Mike Wittmer

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Re: Doping and the IWF: Lessons from Bulgaria
« Reply #12 on: Jan 01, 2009, 12:45 PM »
 

Mike,
     
     Also, our lifters need to do better at international contests, especially the world championships.  Attached is a data table that shows the rather dismal performances at the worlds of late.  It shows their best total in a domestic contest vs. their total at the worlds, the difference and also the effect it had or did not have on placing.  If we even want to begin to hang with the big boys this area plus increased recruits needs to be addressed.

Ryan

[/quote]

Ryan, good point however, with a sample that small it is hard to come to any conclusions.  For example, in '06 Lance was still injured and should not have lifted.  I think Innocent was dealing with a bad knee.  The same in '07 for Jake Johnson.  Sometimes guys just have "off" days.  Perhaps we need to look at selection methods.  

Offline Dustin Oranchuk

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Re: Doping and the IWF: Lessons from Bulgaria
« Reply #13 on: Jan 01, 2009, 12:50 PM »
another reason for the lower totals at the international comps would be that the times the lifters lift at for the US (becasue they are often in the B, or C session).  They would often lift very early in the day.  and not have a great food avalable before they lift.

Offline Mike Wittmer

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Re: Doping and the IWF: Lessons from Bulgaria
« Reply #14 on: Jan 01, 2009, 12:51 PM »
  The numbers issue is not an excuse for our international ranking as a country. Bulgaria has never had more than 4-5 thousand lifters. Despite what people think it is not that popular of a sport over there. Why would it be? Very hard work, need to take drugs, no monetary support. Even Russia's numbers have dropped off a ton. I spoke to a former lifter who is now in his mid 30's that was raised in Medvedyev's sports school and he said powerlifting and bodybuilding overwhelm weightlifting as far as numbers go in Russia and there is very little monetary support for the weightlifters there either just like the USA. They literally need to find sponsors from former athletes that struck it big in the oil industry or to make money winning olympic / world medals to supplement their minimal stipends from the sports agency. The money for olympic medals is usually pretty good. It won't make them rich for life but it is a nice paycheck at a young age. From what I've read this is typically the norm in most countries.
  Also, I'll keep repeating this example over and over again, Georgia always produces good lifters and they can't even train in Georgia because they don't have the funds to build a proper weightlifting facility. They train in Poland and I doubt there are more weightlifters in Georgia than there are in the USA.
  Good coaching, good drugs, and a good reward system for elite athletes and you have a weightlifting team that will compete internationally. Remove one of those variables and it is impossible. Recruiting is important, but if you don't have those other three variables in place the athletes won't make it no matter how many you bring into the sport.

Dave, I think numbers do matter.  I acknowledge it is not the sole issue.  I bet those 4-5 thousand Bulgarians are damn good athletes, and at least some of them would have gravitated to other sports if they were available, as they are here in the US.  When the choices are narrowed, you keep people that we would lose.  

Offline Dave Almeida

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Re: Doping and the IWF: Lessons from Bulgaria
« Reply #15 on: Jan 01, 2009, 01:15 PM »
 Even if one thousand new great athletes were to come to weightlifting in the USA, there is very little means for them to win an Olympic gold medal. It is impossible with the current drug testing, coaching and reward system. You would be recruiting great athletes into weightlifting in a country that cannot develop them to compete with international level competition and would therefore be wasting their athletic ability that could have made them money in another sport if they truly are that gifted physically. So my argument is until those three variables get taken care of, recruiting potential elite athletes into this sport is just letting them waste away unless this sport is the one they really love and get the most joy out of compared to the rest. We have some damn good athletes in weightlifting yet they can't even compete in the same sessions as the best lifters from other countries. Why is that? Until that is solved recruiting is irrelevant in my opinion.