Topic: Pulling up on toes when?

[Jack]

Thanks very much Ryan, for your elaborate answer & explanations. Very much appreciated.
 
You are right, I don't purposely push the hips forward either. It's a torque reaction of hip-head reversal.

I over accentuated this to make clear that the time the heels lift is when the hips go (are) forward, perhaps adding to the confusion. About the moving back, I don't quite follow what you mean. If you look at Berestov's beautiful head arc from the top of the pull on, it's obvious his upper body moves back a lot, as a result of the head-hip lever. Or do I misunderstand what you mean? I think that if the levering wasn't so pronounced, displacing his body's SG to the rear to balance the bar, he could not lift that much high enough.

I see your point about the shrugging from second 13-14. I do think he shrugs at frame 13 to amplify the pull, but with the load on the bar he won't be able to shrug so high. I could be wrong but I think it's not possible not to lift the traps and shoulders and lift like that, using the spine as a lever. I think at his level and load, it's not pull-shrug-squat, but more a continuous pulling up and back and into the squat, blending the phases, so it's difficult to pinpoint things. You are right the shoulders are fully shrugged when he's going down. In agreement, and in addition to what you mention, I think it's also because the bar is weightless at that point, split-second after pulling on the bar up and back.

I apologise if I cloud the original discussion about the way the pull is taught in the US.

Thanks Ryan.

[ryankyle]

Sjaak,
     Do not apologize for contributing.  When referencing moving backwards I meant the feet will jump backwards about an inch or so or move no where at all would be most disirable to lifting heavy weights.  Some do it by chasing it, most notably Taner Sagir, Reyhan Arabacioglu, and Oleg Perepetchenov, but just because they do it doesn't mean I would teach it that way. 
      We agree that when lifting those weights and when you are a lifter of that level it is not a pull-shrug-squat, what I am suggesting is that in order to obtain that in the first place, optimally it should be taught as snatch/clean instead of pull-shrug-squat.    I do think quite the oposite as you though that is possible to lift those weights without the shrug and by shrug I mean actively trying to pull the traps to the ears after the bar has brushed.  Again, it is already moving upward as you can see in the photos so contracting the traps upward will not do anything to make the barbell move upward especially if the lifter is already moving downward.  The shrug can be thought of as a stretch-reflex action from the extreme weight pulling down on the arms, stretching the traps, then after the lifter brushes and jumps under the bar the shoulders move up as a result of the stretch taken off of the traps as well as the elbows beginning to rotate around.  It is much the same effect that the hamstrings experience during the pull. 
      In the end he makes a speedy transition from moving up to moving down and it is one perfect fluid movement totally indistinguishable from one another.  This is where we are lacking big time in US lifting as a whole.
Ryan

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Again, it is already moving upward as you can see in the photos so contracting the traps upward will not do anything to make the barbell move upward especially if the lifter is already moving downward.

I think a better way to say it is that a long shrug won't increase the acceleration on the bar, will in fact decrease it, and won't significantly increase the height of the barbell either, at least not enough to be worth the sacrifice.

[Jack]

When referencing moving backwards I meant the feet will jump backwards about an inch or so or move no where at all would be most disirable to lifting heavy weights.  Some do it by chasing it, most notably Taner Sagir, Reyhan Arabacioglu, and Oleg Perepetchenov, but just because they do it doesn't mean I would teach it that way.

 

I see, yes, I feel the same way about the feet position.

We agree that when lifting those weights and when you are a lifter of that level it is not a pull-shrug-squat, what I am suggesting is that in order to obtain that in the first place, optimally it should be taught as snatch/clean instead of pull-shrug-squat.    I do think quite the oposite as you though that is possible to lift those weights without the shrug and by shrug I mean actively trying to pull the traps to the ears after the bar has brushed.  Again, it is already moving upward as you can see in the photos so contracting the traps upward will not do anything to make the barbell move upward especially if the lifter is already moving downward.  The shrug can be thought of as a stretch-reflex action from the extreme weight pulling down on the arms, stretching the traps, then after the lifter brushes and jumps under the bar the shoulders move up as a result of the stretch taken off of the traps as well as the elbows beginning to rotate around.  It is much the same effect that the hamstrings experience during the pull. 
      In the end he makes a speedy transition from moving up to moving down and it is one perfect fluid movement totally indistinguishable from one another.  This is where we are lacking big time in US lifting as a whole.

You have a point where the teaching of the snatch and clean is concerned. I can't agree on not needing to shrug. Maybe we really differ in semantics. I do agree with you, like Chris also hinted, that shrugging should not be too soon in the pull or over emphasized. It blends in with the body movement, a pull up and back and towards a squat with the feet as fulcrum. and you are very right the full movement should be better explained. Most explanations are about pulling upwards and then jumping under, that's too simple.

But in addition to teaching full lifts the pulls with a shrug at the top are not a bad way to train the pull, I think.
It drills the pull from the start and correct timing in pulling. The beginner clean and snatch will look like a pull plus squat. That's inevitable, but in time it will evolve into something else, hopefully.

 If I were to attempt to train my son the snatch and clean, I would start with showing the full movements, and have him try to copy them, and work from there.

In the end he makes a speedy transition from moving up to moving down and it is one perfect fluid movement totally indistinguishable from one another.  This is where we are lacking big time in US lifting as a whole

I wonder if the pulls are the real culprits. Is there a difference in volume and frequency; technical practice in short, between US programs and "others"?

Thanks very much Ryan, I really enjoy the discussion.

Sjaak

[ryankyle]

Sjaak,
     Not to start the "Great Debate" again but this discussion is going rather well so I will give you my opinion.
     In my opinion I feel that here in the US we have a very small talent pool of athletes to work with.  In that respect we need to maximize that potential as best we can.  So when I see lifters doing special "cycles" (I really hate that word) to improve their squats and pulls I think to myself, "is this really the best way to maximize your potential?"  One lifter for example came to the Junior Worlds in 2007 with a legitimate shot at placing farely decent (top 10ish) and failed to get anywhere near this result because as his coach put it they were in a "strength" cycle and focusing on his squats and pulls to get ready for the Senior World championships in September.  With a statement like that you would expect a herculian performance at the Worlds - I would not call 50th place Herculian. 
      I'm of the opinion that we need to constantly be trying to increase our results in the snatch and clean and jerk not worrying about improving every other exercise under the sun.  I view the training process as an investment with all the possible exercises one can think of as possible investments.  We as coaches and lifters need to pick those sure fire investments which offered a guarenteed return on our investment of time and energy.  As far as I'm concerned only snatches and clean and jerks and squats for that matter have ever been shown to improve snatches and clean and jerks.  If I snatch more or clean and jerk more I am almost 100% guarenteed to get some kind of positive response from it especially if it is handled right.  However, it is hard to make the case for exercises such as pulls and presses when so many teams have had success without the use of them.
      Another area we need to improve on his having our athletes compete more, a whole lot more.  If you look at the US performances of the last ten years you'll notice that most of the time a lifters best results were not in the international competition but in the domestic competition of a given year.  How can you not bring your "A" game to the world championships?  I was once told a story about Galabin Boevski and one of his competition seasons.  He competed in all the contests in Germany and Bulgaria from January through the world championships.  He would not always go 100% but he never did less than 85%.  He competed about 20 times that year.  I followed suit this past year and set up 6 local contests for my team, then we went to the Junior Olympics and the week later the Ohio State Meet.  No one got hurt and all kept improving and at the least attempted a PR every week.  There were 8 competitions in 14 weeks or an average of 1 every 12 days.   Competiting is first and formost a skill in which you have to learn to not only do the lifts with maximum weights but in front of a crowd and in an unusual environment.  The only way to improve that is to compete more and more.
      Often I hear the counter that you will hurt yourself from doing excessive lifts.  One, I would rather hurt myself doing snatches and clean and jerks than hurt myself doing pulls which may or may not be helping me.  Two, it's a lot easier IMO on the body to be doing heavy singles than trying to hit a new 3 rep max on snatch or clean.  Three, people get hurt everyday doing all sorts of things so why worry about it.  If your scared about getting hurt perhaps you should not be involved in sports. 
      I have only been talking about higher level athletes here (with the exception of the competition part), high level juniors all the way up through seniors.  I use a few different exercises with younger lifters, pulls included, although in a slightly different way, along with some power snatches and cleans and a few others but those are mixed in with a pile of snatches and clean and jerks.  Once they hit a higher level those extra exercises are thrown in the trash. 
     The name of the game is snatches and clean and jerks and I feel that for the US as a whole (always exceptions, see Kendrick) we need to stop worrying about improving our "asssistance" exercises and go in the gym and try to improve our snatches and clean and jerks to gain some ground on the rest of the world.  After all there are no world records for pulls.
Ryan
I understand this post may later require more explanation.

[Jack]

Thanks very much for taking the time for such an exhaustive explanation Ryan. From watching Ironmind Training Hall vids, the overwhelming majority of lifters did (many) full lifts from the floor to overhead. With variations like halting lifts or power lifts, the lifts from the hang mixed in, and front or back squats as assistance exercises. This was of course short before a competion. So you seem to be on the right track in your suggestions. American lifters and coaches do seem preoccupied with squats per se. I did notice high pulls and push presses being done by the German lifters, close to the competition. Learning the skill of competing seems very important, like you say. I hope for better times for the US lifters & coaches.

Sjaak

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Wow

I've been away for a few days with a serious lung/sinus ailment and I missed this wonderful discussion. 

Ryan, thanks so much for your thoughts and observations. And especially for taking the time to express those thoughts and observations.  All makes a lot of sense. Particularly the competing part.

I am a novice in this sport, but I am very advanced and elite in another.  I've gotten into Olympic Lifting to improve my own quickness, speed and athleticism (with the hope of fighting advancing years and prolonging my ability to compete on a world championship level). 

I got to that level by competing frequently.  I got to that level by putting in my time to get to that level.  So in that regard, IMHO, you are making a TON of sense. 

After much analysis of what's written above, I now understand the shrug's place in the movement.  However, when we are coaching this movement to novice lifters - should we continue to cue to the shurg - perhaps to get the lifters to stand tall?

I'm new to this sport, but I'm really keen on teaching it to my daughters and any one else who is interested. I'm doing the USAW club coach cert at Potamic Crossfit in January.  My daughters are lifting in the Pittsburgh Open the weekend prior.  My goal is to establish a ECG satelite here in the Charleston WV area by this time next year (I've got a couple very good options at this point).

I'm writing this, because what you, Sjaak, and Chris are saying make a lot of sense.  I just don't want to miss something fundamental or a cue I could use to express it to someone else.

I gather that the best thing to do for Olympic Lifts, is just like my sport, - olympic lifts.  The full movements are key.  If a person has a technical flaw use hang/block/etc. to correct it.

Ryan, where in Ohio are you located?  My daughters and I travelled to Pittsburgh Barbell for a session during Thanksgiving. I'm sure they'd be up for another iron related road trip.

sorry for rambling.

All the best,
 Arden

[ryankyle]

Arden,
     I am very happy to hear the discussion helped you - it is really turning into a something very educational.  I live in Sandusky, Ohio and along with my father coach about a dozen kids out of my former high school.  I have about 10-12 boys training (ages 11 - 17), my sister and another girl.  I am also glad to hear you and your daughters are going to the Pittsburgh Open, I will be there too as my sister is competiting in order to qualify for the Junior Nationals at 53kg.  She usually lifts at 58kg and has represented the US internationally 3 times and is trying to reduce down a class in order to make the Junior Worlds.  She will be lifting in the 1 p.m. session please come over and introduce yourself you'll figure out who we are.  We will also be hosting the 2009 Ohio Weightlifting Championships and Midwest Open - I would like it if you could attend - July 18th.   
     Now to the shrug.  I use to teach people to shrug because that's what I was told to do and did not think too much of it.  Then I started to think for myself (one of my downfalls is thinking I can always come up with a better way of doing things) and thought maybe there was no shrugging at all.  This led me to my previous explanation of cause and effect in the lift in regards to the "shrugging motion".  Now I do not mention the word shrug ever.  The first things I teach are Overhead Squat, Jerk, and Front Squat.  IMO those 3 exercises are the basis for learning all the difficult positions of the actual lifts - they teach overhead support, elbow position for the rack and jerk and where the barbell will be upon execution of the snatch and clean.  The next lesson is the snatch from the dead hang and the clean from the dead hang.  Usually the full clean from day one and the full snatch within a week or two.  If you watch me train a kid who comes to me at say 11 he will not do a single power version after he learns the full lifts until he's completed 1 year of training.
      It's been my experience that the "shrugging movement" will occur naturally and fluidly as a result of the lifter learning to move their elbows around the bar to the rack position without doing a reverse curl.  You will see it, but they will not know they are doing it.  This is best.  These lifts need to be like breathing.  You breathe, you know it's happening, but you don't really need to know how it happens, just that you can do it anytime you have to.  Same with snatches and clean and jerks.  They can be so complicated that from a lifters standpoint the more information they have, the worse off they are.  They need to learn to feel the lift not think about it - when they grab the barbell everything needs to be automatic without any thought.  They just need to be able to do it, not disect it.  It is our job as coaches to fully understand the movements and then convey them in a very simple manner.  The rest will take care of itself.
Ryan