Topic: Pulling up on toes when?

[ryankyle]

Chris,
     Thanks for the compliment.  I think what my take on the triple-joint extension and what your take on it is are two different animals.  I'm going to go ahead and assume you have a USAW club coaching manual handy to look at.  Throughout the manual they repeatedly show lifters demonstrating the pull of the lifts moving straight up, finishing tall, with everything extended (knees not totally extend maybe 175 degree or so), that is what I am talking about when I say triple-joint extension.  Obviously the ankles will extend slightly, knees too and hips what I was attempting to get at and may have failed was wanting to avoid this over-extension that is being taught. 
       When I've seen other coaches begin to teach lifters how to lift I see and here them teaching the pull by saying something along the lines of "stand tall and shrug".  I cringe when I hear this because the translation of that is pull on it far too long then try to beat it down. 
      This is turning into a very good discussion started out of a simple question.  It's a discussion, not a fire spitting contest, and that's a very good thing.
Ryan

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

I'm going to go ahead and assume you have a USAW club coaching manual handy to look at.

No, sorry. I have one, but it is in storage. And, I am pretty sure it has been updated since I took the course, like ten years ago.

Obviously the ankles will extend slightly, knees too and hips what I was attempting to get at and may have failed was wanting to avoid this over-extension that is being taught.

Sounds like we actually are in agreement, at least mostly.

It's a discussion, not a fire spitting contest, and that's a very good thing.

Amen. I've very much enjoyed your posts.

[Carl Darby]

Ryan,

Thanks for taking the time to further explain your views. We can agree on this: If excessive joint extension is defined as extending beyond the point of maximum bar velocity, then excessive joint extension is not only useless, but detrimental. We can also agree the the instructions "stand tall and shrug" might induce lifters to hang onto a pull beyond that point.

I was in the process of explaining where we disagree, using the sequence photos of Kendrick Ferris as an example when I think I finally figured out what you are saying. If I am right in my interpretation, you would say the thigh bush is happening in frames 20-23.  It is also that time in which the joint extension is taking place. Frame 23 shows the greatest degree of extension, but it is likely as with any sequence photos or video that the brief moment of maximum extension is lost between frames. In frame 24 he is already pulling under the bar, so of course his knees are nowhere near fully extended. If you are saying that attempting to extend past what is shown in frame 23 is useless, I completely agree. My initial interpretation was that you were claiming any extension past what is shown in frame 20 was useless.

One point however, between frames 24 and 25, he is most definitely exerting an upwards force on the bar. Its the same force that pulls him under the bar.

[ryankyle]

Carl,
     You are right we are now on the same page.  I probably should have explained my interpretation of triple joint extension.  Whenever I hear someone talk about it the picture or demostration they tend to give is the "stand tall and shrug" variety.  This is counterproductive to teaching good technique because the idea conveyed is one of having to continuously crank on the barbell even after the thigh brush. 
     This is why pulls are next to useless and most likely belong on the junk pile of history.  Well, to clarify, pulls with a shrug and driving up on the balls of the feet - this teaches to continue to lift beyond the point of deminishing returns.  IMO this is part of the hardships of US lifting.  Not to start that "Great Debate" again, but I feel that until we (the weightlifting coaching community as a whole which I consider myself a part of) change our methods of teaching the lifts and training we will continue to be dead in the water.  There are always exceptions to the rule, nothing is absolute, but I feel as a whole we could improve our weightlifting talent pool with simple changes in our thinking. 
      I've watched almost all of the American Open this weekend and I see so many lifters pull the bar with ease, catch it high, ride it down then stand up and I think to myself, "gee if they could learn to pull and jump under it right into the squat instead of having to catch it high and ride it down (something you will never see a world champion do) they would be much better off.  I attribute this epidemic to this obsession of standing tall and shrugging mentality more than anything.  I do not know all of these lifters personally or how they train, however, based on what I've observed this assumption seems rather plausible if not dead on.
Ryan

[Dustin Oranchuk]

ryankyle, i personally think that pulls are not dead, and that they are very important, my coach, who was the Armenian national coach in the mid 1990s, includes pulls in our workouts at least 3 times per week, but i think the key is teaching the lifters to keep the arms totally straight for the whole pull.  This way you can improve your strength in the main pulling motion, but with out including the arms in the pull.

Sorry if I'm not explaining it well.

And as far as your argument about riding the bar down "something you will never see a world champion do" is a little bit off, Dimitry beristov, 2004 OLYMPIC CHAMPION routinely catches the bar right around parallel, and rides it down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgjFfJyfJIw

same goes for chigishev, klokov, and a tone of other incredible lifters.

maybe it just depends on your definition of catching it HIGH, or maybe these lifters just do it so much more smoothly then the ones at the American open.

[ryankyle]

Dustin,
      I admit that some do catch it rather on the high side and ride it down.  Chigishev was the first one that came to mind like you said and I recognize that nothing is absolute.  Rob Macklem had a picture of him catching his 250kg clean at about parallel. However, his jerk is rather sad most of the time, leaving me to believe that he has the ability to clean much more.  I wish someone could verify just how much he could clean alone because I have a hunch it's much more than we've ever seen in competition because he has to jerk it in the contest and his jerk is weak (relatively speaking here).
      The video you posted of Dmitry Berestov seems to prove this point however that is "only" 210 on the bar.  Here is a video of him doing 240 and if you pause it at the right moment you'll notice him catching it in the full squat as it is a maximum weight. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGdmIeI1SjA

  I do not know how to place the video in the post so I had to post the youtube link.  Also, he attempted to do the same thing he did in your video at the Euro's this past year because he had an injured hip and had a hard time moving into the full squat and dropped his first two cleans before gutting through the third.  Also, Klokov does not do this, he moves directly into the squat and I have seen him lift many times and in person a couple of times.  He is really something IMO.  We could probably play the name game all day to find lifters that validate both our opinions, but like I said no statement applies to everyone, but I would venture to say for the vast majority of world champions (in our era especially) they pull right into the squat with no riding down.  Watch the 2008 olympics and you won't see anyone outside of Chigishev do that at least no one on the medal stand.
      In regards to doing pulls, like I said the variety of standing tall and shrugging needs to go at the least.  I pulls to train my younger school age guys but instead of shrugging the bar at the top when it meets there thighs the drop the bar and we only do them about once a week.  Consider them a cross between a deadlift and a pull.  I like this way better because there is still the "double-knee bend" but not excessive pull.  Again, sorry for the potentially poor description. 
Ryan

[Jack]

Hesitatingly, because of my novice status, I'd like to mention some things I've missed in explanations about the pull above the knees in most available literature, web sites, etc and that may contribute to confusion in novices, myself included:

 Starting from the point where the bar is just above the knees, the hips back and the shoulders in front of the bar, you reverse the head and hips; pushing the hips forward and the head backward, using the spine as a lever, pulling the bar up along the thighs, arms function as cables. The shoulders shrug ideally when the bar is at least halfway up the thighs.

The head needs to end up behind the hips, much more so in the snatch- than in the clean pull, to bring the SG of the body to the rear, to balance the barbell. When the head is at or behind the vertical line with the feet, the heels will come up when the hips go forward. The body is now at its fullest extension and inclined rearwards.
This position will greatly facilitate the squat under.

When squatting, the bar serves as an axis around wich the body rotates down. Both the videos can be made to show all steps.

Sjaak

[ryankyle]

Sjaak,
     I do not believe in purposely pushing the hips forward rather your hips will come in naturally as the back begins to work as a lever once the barbell has passed the knees.  In fact try it; just take an empty bar and start with it above your knees and simply move your chest up using your back and see where the bar ends up.  If your doing it right, the bar will meet the hips or essentially the hips "come through".  From this position your shoulders automatically end up at the least over top of the barbell when it is meeting your hips or slightly behind it depending on limb length and body proportions.  In the videos post below if you can stop them at the right moment, Berestov's shoulders are about over the bar when he is at his max extension.  Purposely pushing the hips forward - more often than not - results in pushing the bar forward causing you to have to jump forward or in essence chase it.  It is very hard to lift something heavier than your bodyweight and run after it at the same time.  Again, there are exceptions - Perepetchenov being one but as a majority slightly moving backwards or moving no where at all is the best way to lift.
      In regards to the shrug, pause the video at the 13 second mark and you'll see again Berestov at his max extension right before moving under the bar.  His shoulders are not shrugging.  The shrug is the result of him jumping under the bar and his hands continuing to rise and his elbows rotating around.  It is impossible to move under the bar and move the elbows around correctly and not have the shoulders rise upward to accomplish this, but the shrug is not used to pull the barbell up rather it is the result of him moving downward and his elbows rotating, the shrug does not cause this.  It's cause and effect, the shrug does not cause this to happen it is the effect of this happening.   Here is a picture from the frame I'm talking about - forgive the poor quality but you should still be able to see it if I attached it correctly.  [attach=1]
      If you can get the video to go slightly passed 13 seconds but before 14 seconds you can see his shoulders are in a shrugged positition.  However, look at the position of his body relative to the bar.  He can not possibly be shrugging to move the bar upward at all as he is moving downward and his is not in a position to shrug.  To shrug the bar the shoulders have to be over it and in picture one you could see they were already inclined slightly behind it and in this picture which seems to give clear evidence of the shrug he is not in a shrugging position either.  [attach=2]  You are right though, the bar does serve as the axis around which the body rotates down.
Ryan