Topic: Pulling up on toes when?

[ryankyle]

    Excess joint extension (sp?) is just as useless unless that is where your joints are when the bar brushes.  For example - watch kahki and you'll notice when the bar meets there is no so-called triple joint extension.  However, watch Georgie Markov and it'll be there.  That has to do with differences in body types but I can guarentee you neither one of them ever thought of triple joint extension, only to jump under it as fast as possible thats what I was getting at with Andrei Aramnau.  Kahki's 235 from Atlanta is a great example or his 235 from Barcelona for that matter.
     Now as far as shrugging the shoulders goes, it is an effect of the elbows rotating in the clean and the same for the snatch.  IMO you should not be trying to forcefully or activally shrug the bar, again wasted movement, it only results from the elbow rotation.  Telling one to shrug the bar only causes the delay at the top of the pull.  The shrugging motion occurs naturally as a result of good technique, you do not shrug to have good technique.  It's a little hard to explain without a visual aid - try if you will to imagine this, in the clean the hands are attached to the bar which is moving upward as a result of the thigh brush, while at the same time the torso is moving downward to get under the bar - the middle ground is the shoulder, can you understand how the shrug appears then?  Again, very hard to explain in type, perhaps later I'll think of a better explanation. 
Ryan

[Colin K Bell]

Thanks folks, that really helps. I bet this bad habit has also been a factor in my knee injury. I will really have to concentrate on keeping my feet flat until hip level at least.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Excess joint extension (sp?) is just as useless unless that is where your joints are when the bar brushes.

That is a tricky statement. In general, I would say there is no such thing as excessive joint extension in the snatch and CJ. However, I do agree the extension should occur just after the bar brush.

IMO you should not be trying to forcefully or activally shrug the bar, again wasted movement, it only results from the elbow rotation.

I agree that you should not try to shrug in the lifts because if you do then you will exaggerate it and jump too late. But, some shrugging will occur naturally, as you said.

[Colin K Bell]

I tried pulls last night. I was keeping heels down fine on first few sets. But as poundage increased, up my heels would come, despite even putting 2 small plates under my toes. Guess i will have to keep practising and practising to correct this bad habit.

[Carl Darby]

Same thing happens here, the heavier the weight gets, the harder it is to keep my weight back on my heels. Just keep working on it.

[Carl Darby]

    Excess joint extension (sp?) is just as useless unless that is where your joints are when the bar brushes.  For example - watch kahki and you'll notice when the bar meets there is no so-called triple joint extension.  However, watch Georgie Markov and it'll be there.  That has to do with differences in body types but I can guarentee you neither one of them ever thought of triple joint extension, only to jump under it as fast as possible thats what I was getting at with Andrei Aramnau.  Kahki's 235 from Atlanta is a great example or his 235 from Barcelona for that matter.
     Now as far as shrugging the shoulders goes, it is an effect of the elbows rotating in the clean and the same for the snatch.  IMO you should not be trying to forcefully or activally shrug the bar, again wasted movement, it only results from the elbow rotation.  Telling one to shrug the bar only causes the delay at the top of the pull.  The shrugging motion occurs naturally as a result of good technique, you do not shrug to have good technique.  It's a little hard to explain without a visual aid - try if you will to imagine this, in the clean the hands are attached to the bar which is moving upward as a result of the thigh brush, while at the same time the torso is moving downward to get under the bar - the middle ground is the shoulder, can you understand how the shrug appears then?  Again, very hard to explain in type, perhaps later I'll think of a better explanation. 
Ryan

I have been trying to understand your statement about excess extension for a couple days now, and I fail to see how foregoing something that adds height and velocity to the bar without adversely affecting position should be avoided.

[ryankyle]

Carl,
     Allow me to clerify what I meant by excess joint extension.  I will try to insert pictures into the post too to help translate my words, as this is very hard to explain by text alone.
     After the barbell brushes the thighs it continues to move upward under its own power.  At that point continuing to rise up on the toes; complete a triple joint extension of the hips, ankles, knees; stand tall and shrug then move under the bar is useless.  Either you will brain yourself with the bar or you're not lifting as much as you should be.  All you have to do is ask yourself this simple question - if the barbell is moving up under its own power then why should I continue to tug on it?  If it is already moving on its own then why try to make it move more?  Why not utilize that time to move yourself down?   
     Download the powerpoint frame-by-frame of Kendrick that Chris posted a day or two ago and go to frame 24 and you'll see the barbell has just left his hips and he is beginning to move under the bar.  Notice how extremely bent his joints still are especially his knees.  He is far from the pictures of the triple-joint extension in the USAW manual.  Now flip back and forth between pictures 24 and 25 and notice that at the same time the bar is moving up he is moving down, how then could he possibly be exerting any upward force on the bar?  This is case-in-point that after the thigh brush going under is priority number one full extension or not.
      Now, with that being said some lifters do have a so-called triple joint extension before moving under the bar but thats because the barbell doesn't meet their hips until there in that extension position, usually longer armed lifters do this.  This is not a conscious effort to full straighten the body but rather they have a longer wait time, so-to-speak, until the barbell brushes the thighs.  While they are waiting, if you will, their body continues to extend until the barbell meets the thighs then they move under.  If someone has access to pics of Georgi Markov cleaning and Kakiashvilis clean please post them particularly a sequence shot of Kaki from a profile Strossen did on him in 1997. 
Ryan

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Ryan,

I think you make some good points in a very intelligent fashion. I very rarely discuss technique on the forum but your posts have been very interesting and well stated. However, I am going to disagree with what I think you are saying:

After the barbell brushes the thighs it continues to move upward under its own power.  At that point continuing to rise up on the toes; complete a triple joint extension of the hips, ankles, knees; stand tall and shrug then move under the bar is useless.

Using this logic, one could give the bar a quick jerk off the floor and jump under. It will work with light weights.... Of course, one should never rise to the toes, only the balls of the feet. In that regard, I agree 100%, for the reasons you cite.

Download the powerpoint frame-by-frame of Kendrick that Chris posted a day or two ago and go to frame 24 and you'll see the barbell has just left his hips and he is beginning to move under the bar.

Okay, disclaimer: It was Jim Hooper that posted the sequence. I just linked to it when someone said they were looking for it (use the search engine- it works, unlike other forums!). In frame 24 and 25, you can clearly see that Kendrick has achieved triple joint extension, which does not mean the knees lock- since they should never lock.

Now, with that being said some lifters do have a so-called triple joint extension before moving under the bar but thats because the barbell doesn't meet their hips until there in that extension position, usually longer armed lifters do this.

I disagree. I do not believe there are any decent lifts done without triple extension. It is the best way to produce power and therefore mandatory. Only beginners fail to do it.