Topic: Let's not get so fat and let's get faster log for the recreational axemen

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Sjaak,
  Awesome once again.  I'm snatching tomorrow.  So I'm going to work on "reach up and up."  And that premature arm bend is really killing me.  I'm losing my arm straightness as soon as I get above the knees.  I'm considering a ton a drill work at the knee to get this right.  Both on my cleans and my snatches.

  Here's what I've been up to

On Christmas evening - I managed to do a ton of underhand drills and single one big 22" pine with a hard wood saw (not easy given my fatigued state)

12.26.08 - slacker.  Pretty sore from the hades the day before.  Did roll a lot and did some swings to loosen.  Tons of handle work.

12.27.08 - split wood for two hours.  Then cut some underhands.  Likely 250 to 300 hits in the session.  Kristy joined me for the entire foray.  It was really fun.

Did 33 minutes of kettebell work mixed with my handle technique work.

12.28.08 - Kata w5wo1 75%

Started with Roller and yoga.  The girls joined me.  Kiara did a ton of squats, power snatches, OHS, and push presses.  She's also painfully learning front squats.

Me I started with Snatches.  Did drills with Bar, 75, and 95.  Then did 115x5, 135x5, 160x5, 170x5.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0iWUHDv1T0&feature=channel_page

My second pull needs work.  Lots of work.

Then did Push Press Behind the Neck: 95x5, 135x5, 185x5, 205x5, 240x5

Then did Squats: 135x4, 225x4, 315x4, 365x4, 315x4, 315x4

Then did snatch pulls: 135x4, 205x4,  255x4, 265x4, 275x4, 305x4

Then did some OHS: 95x8, 145x8, 185x8, 225x3, 145x8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4IqpHFv4jk&feature=channel_page

Then did some abs, rolled, and more yoga.

12.29.08

Started with yoga and roller.

Then went to squat cleans: 95x5, 135x5, 185x5, 205x5, 235x5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjxCOu6Lyqs&feature=channel_page

Still crappy second pull.  Got to do some drill this into me to keep my elbows out and my shoulders forward.

Then did some push presses.  These were hard as all heck as I took a PP BTH to the spine the day before.  Did 95x5, 135x5, 185x5, 205x5, 235x5.

Then did front squats:  Did 135x4, 225x4, 275x4, 285x4, 295x4, 305x4, 225x4

Then did clean pulls: Did 135x4, 225x4, 315x4, 365x4, 405x4, 315x4

Then did 4 sets of 8 with a 24kg kb press

Then did some abs:

12.30.08
Nothing thus far today: hope to do soem event and some kettlebell work.  But not sure.  Food is tempting.  I've so overeaten today.  I'm afraid of the scales.

All the best,
  Arden
 

I've come a long way and I think the next step is going to take me a longer to achieve.  Just being realistic and I'm in no way losing any enthusiasm.

On Schmidtz concept of "reach up, up"  - does that mean actively and stoutly pressing the bar upwards with the lats and arms?  I'm trying to understand the cue.  The gripping the bar tight really helped me with my pulls and my recieving position.  It seems to engage my forearms more into the movement.

Hi Arden, you certainly have.

"reach up" works good, try to reach straight up, arm at least beside the ears, better behind them. Your description of doing it seems spot on. Arch in the back, and put the chest out. Your experience of gripping the bar tightly helping your pull and receiving sounds plausible, but remember the arms are only cables attached to the lever during the time you pull on the bar. Too much emphasis on your strong forearms could encourage premature bending.

I understand the concept of not pulling so hard - or the balance it requires.  One point that was made to me recently is that I really need to work more on keeping the bar path more straight as I'm bouncing it a bit out of line when I get to the crease of my hips.  I've looked at a lot of the videos and I think that completely explains why I'm catching a lot of lifts forward? 

If the weight is light for you, you cannot pull with all you have, obviously. To practice technique it's best to find a weight that it not so light that you have trouble feeling it, and it is all over the place, or so heavy that you don't have 100% control during the movement.

The "best" bar trajectory would be a straight line, but because your body position changes, the leverages do also, and because of the levering above the knee, the bar will describe an arc. Also, if the load is lighter, the forward arc will be more pronounced than with a heavier load. If you pull backwards and up when the bar is above the knee, displacing your body's CG to the rear,  the bar will go "more straight"up, and will stay closer to the body. Another point that encourages forward bar travel was pointed out to me by Matt, and is premature rising of the hips at the start of the pull, something I often did/do.

To come back to not pulling to hard, try not to cut the pull short, but to remember the pointers you have for yourself, and pull up and back and try not to hesitate in squatting under.

I don't wear a belt for any movement.  I do wear a TK waist band to keep my lower back warm every time I train - even event work.  I only wear a belt when I'm pulling really heavy weights.  And even then, I wear it over top of my TK waist band.  Would the TK band be causing me to get the bar too far forward?  I would like to say my big "android" is the most likely contributor, but I'm going to really work on this bar path progress.  It makes a lot of sense.

Oh yes now I see, to keep warm seems a good idea. I think the android has the disadvantage for you that you must exaggerate the backward movement of the upper body during the pull above the knees. But, I think you're doing great and adapt very well to your body. You have more advantages than disadvantages.

I'm positive you'll find a way for a painless patella tendon in your jerks. I'll look up how Kendrick Ferris jerks, have you tried non-split jerking?

Thanks for putting up the awesome event videos on YT, and your OL vids on the forum, Arden.

Have a good year's end!

Sjaak

[Jack]

Awesome workouts Arden!

I'm losing my arm straightness as soon as I get above the knees.  I'm considering a ton a drill work at the knee to get this right.  Both on my cleans and my snatches.

Hi Arden, like you say, the hang lifts will do the trick. Your proposal to start just above the knee is spot on.
Try not to rush the pull, drag the bar along the thighs before "exploding". If you watch the bar trajectory from the start just above the knees, it should ideally go up vertically in the first inches of movement.

The hang lifts will also get to the squatting under.

Try not to bounce too much in the snatches, catch the bar and rise. Try for a solid catch and rack, back arched in, chest out (reaching up). Do try to rack the bar at a lower position. Try to use more "torque" in levering the bar, head going back and hips going forward in the pull above the knees (head-hip lever), the head should end up behind the hips at the top of the pull if you look from the side.

In a few years, you'll need to fight off the boys when they come for your pretty daughter!

Thanks for posting Arden!

Sjaak

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Awesome workouts Arden!

I'm losing my arm straightness as soon as I get above the knees.  I'm considering a ton a drill work at the knee to get this right.  Both on my cleans and my snatches.

Hi Arden, like you say, the hang lifts will do the trick. Your proposal to start just above the knee is spot on.
Try not to rush the pull, drag the bar along the thighs before "exploding". If you watch the bar trajectory from the start just above the knees, it should ideally go up vertically in the first inches of movement.

The hang lifts will also get to the squatting under.

Try not to bounce too much in the snatches, catch the bar and rise. Try for a solid catch and rack, back arched in, chest out (reaching up). Do try to rack the bar at a lower position. Try to use more "torque" in levering the bar, head going back and hips going forward in the pull above the knees (head-hip lever), the head should end up behind the hips at the top of the pull if you look from the side.

In a few years, you'll need to fight off the boys when they come for your pretty daughter!

Thanks for posting Arden!

Sjaak

Sjaak,
 As always, awesome advice.  I will work on that torque you mention with the head.  It's something I've noticed when watching Dimas.  Trying to emulate him though is next to impossible.  I like the concept as it has more application than just weightlifting - the same applies to my sport as well.

  Been doing a lot of hang lifts the past few days and have actually incorporated some block lifts. I'm back off to some lighter weights to work more on getting my shoulders over the bar properly along with my elbows straight at the top of the second pull. I hope it works.

  Thanks so much for thoughts and time.  It means a lot to me.

All the best,
 Arden

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

I left off on December 30, 2008.  I did do some extended Bell sets and handle work late in the evening.

On 12.31.08.

During the lunch hour, I got some beefcake.  Started with Yoga and Roller.

After that Started with Snatch Balances.  Went 45x4, 95x4, 115x4, 135x4, 165x4, 185x4, 185x4.

After that did some snatch drills and snatches.  95x4, 115x4, 135x4, 145x4, 155x4.  I was working on keeping my arms straighter for longer.  Keeping my elbows turned out.  I was actually quick impressed with how quick I was going into the hole with some of the weights.  Slowly but surely, I think I'm getting quicker.

After that, did back squats.  Went 135x4, 225x4, 315x4, 365x4, 315x4, 315x4.

After that did RDLs: went 135x4, 225x4, 315x4, 315x4, 315x4, 315x4.

here's some highlights of the above: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUxPpFo5fyY&feature=channel_page

After that did some dead stop overheads. 95x8, 135x8, 185x8, 135x8. These were real deep. I literally had to shoe horn myself under the weight before standing up with it.

After that did some abs, yoga, and got back to work.

That evening, Kiara and I went over to the barn in the evening.  She had an awesome workout.  She did a bunch of overhead presses, power snatches, squats, and block jerks.  I did some drill work in the springboard and stock saw.  I ran some chip lines in the underhand.  Kiara ended up pulling a few sets of conventional deads with her bodyweight for sets of 10.  She's a very strong 11 year old girl.  She's doing the Pittsburgh Open in a few weeks and she has some goals in mind. 

1.1.09.  Went to crossfit WV and coached several folk through their CF Total day - squat, press, and deadlift.  I played with some lighter weights giving some of the newer members some tips on technique in all three lifts.  I did pull 445 and 465 to make sure the weights would stay on the bar as one of the members was getting ready to set a PR in the dead.  We don't have many cast iron plates at this facility - but a ton of bumpers - so once the bar gets over 405, it takes some ingenuity to make sure the weights are going to stay on the bar.

That evening.  Did some handle work and some sets of 10 with the bells.  I just didn't have enough in me to do a full bell workout.

1.2.08  Kata w5wo6 75%

Started with yoga and roller.

Then went to squat cleans.  Went 45x5, 95x5, 135x5, 185x5, 215x5.

Then went to power clean and push press.  Went 95x5, 135x5, 185x5, 215x5.

Here's footage of the top sets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tffu5hDGmAw&feature=channel_page

Again, I was doing my best to keep my elbows straight at the top of the second pull.  I think I'm doing a better job, but I have a ways to go.  Buddha gave me a friendly wave on the 5th rep in the power clean and press.

After that did some front squats.  Went 135x4, 225x4, 275x4, 295x4, 315x2, 315x2, 225x4.  I could have done 4 with the 315, but I broke it up into 2 separate sets with about 15 seconds rest from rack to resquatting.

After that did some seated press.  Went 95x4, 135x4, 165x4, 185x4, 165x4, 135x4.

Then did some conventional deadlifts. Decided to keep it light.  I also kept an overgrip with both hands and worked on keeping my wrists back, elbows out and straight and shoulders over the bar. It was sort of a RDL with a lower hip position at the start.  Did 135x8, 225x8, 315x8, 405x8.

After that did some abs.

1.3.08.  The misses and I began installing laminent hard wood floors in Kiara's room.  We put in a good 5 to 6 hours.  We used all my kettlebells to hold everything in place.  So I had to hand truck those beauties from the barn to the upstairs.  That wasn't easy.

That evening, I did a bunch of event work.  3 singles (which all sucked - using a hardwood shark in dry pine; but I'm not quitting until that dry wood is gone), 2 standings (about 75 to 100 hits total), and one huge underhand (over 100 hits).  Also did a bunch of tree drills with the boards.  I need to install a new tree. 

I'm very pleased at how well I'm moving in the standing and underhand.  Especially the underhand.  I honestly think I have more axe speed. 
Here's some highlights. 

I also did some box jumps at the end.  First box was 33" and the second box was 37".  I need to do more of these at the end of event work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9X7nppymb8&feature=channel_page

1.4.09  another five hours of laminent hard floor installation.  Could barely stand up at the end of the day.

1.5.09.  Worked out with Kristy for the first time in a while and it was an awesome session.

Kata w5repeatwo1 65%.  I'm doing a light week to get back on track with the event work and the bell work.  Moreover, I really want to work to get my shoulder's over the bar better.

Started out with Snatches.  Did drill work.  Did 2 tall, 2 off a 12" box, and 2 full.  Went 45x6, 75x6, 95x6, 115x6, 135x6, 145x6.

Then did some snatch grip push press behind the neck.  Went 95x5, 135x5, 185x5, 205x5.

Then did some back squats.  Went 135x5, 225x5, 315x3x5.

Then did some snatch pulls: went 135x5, 205x5, 235x3x5.

I recorded the snatches and the snatch pulls. I'll youtube those tonight.

After that did some OHS. I'm getting pretty confident with this movement.  I went 95x8, 135x8, 165x8, 135x8.

After that did some abs, roller and yoga.

I'd like to do some event work tonight if I'm not doing trim work.  But we'll see.

All the best,
 Arden

[Jack]

Slowly but surely, I think I'm getting quicker.

I agree, you're doing great! Keep on practicing your drills.

About the pressing, you could try to modify the exercise to "come closer" to the jerk, by making it a "push jerk".

Set the back, arched in lower back, chest out, a rigid launching platform, or ram. Try to keep the arms and hands relaxed. Dip, and push with the legs, not the arms. As the bar passes the face, dip and catch, or press the last short distance to lockout, and stand up fully extended. Maybe the knees will accept this. Training this way will go a long way to master jerking.

Awesome event training video!

Sjaak

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Sjaak,
  Thanks so much for the kind words.

    I'll try some push jerks tomorrow instead of push presses.  I think as long as I don't reposition my feet, I won't aggrevate my patella tendon.  I'll keep the weights low unless I feel compelled.  Which wouldn't surprise me given the way I felt this morning.

    All the best,
 Arden

Slowly but surely, I think I'm getting quicker.

I agree, you're doing great! Keep on practicing your drills.

About the pressing, you could try to modify the exercise to "come closer" to the jerk, by making it a "push jerk".

Set the back, arched in lower back, chest out, a rigid launching platform, or ram. Try to keep the arms and hands relaxed. Dip, and push with the legs, not the arms. As the bar passes the face, dip and catch, or press the last short distance to lockout, and stand up fully extended. Maybe the knees will accept this. Training this way will go a long way to master jerking.

Awesome event training video!

Sjaak

[Justin Ott]

looking strong on your push presses 

I am wondering why I find it easier to do power cleans than squat cleans, in theory shouldnt it be the other way around?

you were doing the same weight with power cleans as squat cleans right? does this mean we both have the strength to do more weight on squat cleans, but are waiting for the technique to catch up?

Great training vids, my gym wont allow video cameras.

Do you still do lumberjack comps?

cheers,

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

looking strong on your push presses 

I am wondering why I find it easier to do power cleans than squat cleans, in theory shouldnt it be the other way around?

you were doing the same weight with power cleans as squat cleans right? does this mean we both have the strength to do more weight on squat cleans, but are waiting for the technique to catch up?

Great training vids, my gym wont allow video cameras.

Do you still do lumberjack comps?

cheers,

Justin,
   I really need to start jerking some weights.  But thanks so much for the compliment.  I've never been a comparatively strong pusher (compared to my pulling), but it's slowly starting to come around.

  In theory, one should be able to squat clean a LOT more than you can power clean.  The difference is pulling the bar chest high versus navel high.  It's easier to pull a heavier weight to the navel than it is to pull it to the chest.  The reason you and I likely find it easier to power clean is because of a comfort issue with pulling ourselves under the weight instead of simply pulling the weight.

  Seriously, the difference is jumping under a weight while it's still moving upwards - Versus catching a weight when it reaches it's maximum height after we've pulled it.

   I started performing squat cleans and squat snatches about eight weeks ago.  I started doing power cleans and power snatches on a regular basis during September of 07.  I'm very much a newbie to these movements.  Don't get me wrong, I've got a lot of years with the iron - but these ballastic/speed/athletic movements have captivated my attention.

    But you are right, I'm working on technical issues with weights I can handle.  And I also think that once I have more confidence with the squat cleans, that I will be able to squat clean a LOT more than I can power clean.  At least that's what I think and hope.  I could be completely wrong.  My main impetus is getting quicker, faster, and more athletic (with a genuine interest in competitive weightlifting because both my daughters have expressed interest and the eldest, Kiara (she's 11), is doing her second comp in a few weeks - the following week, I'm going to Potamic Crossfit to get my USAW Club Coach certification).

   And getting quicker, faster, and more athletic is for my lumberjack comps.  The North American Season is over right now. There are a few smaller contests over the next few months.  But things don't really kick off until May.  So I'm trying to get myself in as good of physical condition as I can while I can.  My wife is headed to Australia for the biggest contest in the world (Royal Easter Show at Sydney) as part of the US Women's National Team  in March.  Unfortunately, I have to stay home with the girls.   

   It's a shame you can't take cameras into your gym.  Videoing one's self one these technical lifts is one of the best ways to figure out what's going on.  Then having watchful and learned folk such as Sjaak and others who are willing to contribute/comment is just awesome.

   Do you think if you went to the gym ownership and expressed that you don't have a coach for the "very technical" olympic lifts, but coaching is available over the internet, would they would consider allowing the use of the camera - for the limited purpose of filiming your clean and jerks and squat snatches?   

   It couldn't hurt to ask?  Heck, I'd even offer to show whomever what I have on the camera when I left the gym to make sure they understand that I am not hiding any impropriety, etc.   We all can get an idea of what abuses led to this policy.

All the best,
 Arden

All the best,
 Arden