Topic: What do you tell yourself when going into the third pull?

[Rolando Rodriguez]

I've only been at the lifts in earnest for 5 months now, but I'll add my $0.02.  Right now I'm still inefficient enough (meaning I get the bar higher than I need to) to have time to think during my third pull.  What I usually think is "God****it, why the f*** are you not under the bar yet!?"  I then proceed to get under the bar as fast as I can.  This usually results in an uglier lift than if I hadn't thought at all...

I agree with other posters: stop all power work.  I did and it helped tremendously.  In fact, doing power cleans/snatches feels weird to me now!  As far as getting under, I found that tall cleans/snatches really helped me.  A tall lift involves starting from a fully extended position and getting under the bar quickly.  This really helps get your footwork and the squat-under synchronized.  There are several starting positions you can use (on heels, on toes, on toes with shoulders shrugged); all are useful, and all start with the legs and hips fully extended.

Once you've got the tall lifts down, transition to the hang so you can use a bit more weight.  I found that the muscle movements I learned in the tall lifts made it simple to get deep starting from the hang.  At no point should you accept anything less than a full squat under the bar; if you catch it high, ride it down so you brain learns to get low.

Once you get comfortable getting under from the hang, transition either to below the knee or to the floor.  You can try complexes too (e.g. 1 hang, 1 below knee, 1 floor).  Again, catching it high should be avoided at all costs!  If this means having to cut yourself after each power clean, then so be it!  This is war!

Try also adding a bit of speed in the descent of your front/overhead squats.  This helped me, as I found it got the body used to the quick squat and rebound of the full lifts.

Keep working!  Unlike a lot of guys starting out, you seem to have both good flexibility and strength.  You just have to learn to use them together now...

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Rolando,
  Excellent advice.  I particularly like the idea of doing the complex as you've written - Tall squat clean, hang squat clean, squat clean from floor.  That sounds like right up my alley.

  Today, I had my first squat clean workout since the comp.  I squat cleaned everything I did and didn't give two **its if I missed a lift.  And miss some I surely did.  I went 95x3 (floor, hang, floor), 135x3, 165x3, 185x3, then did 205 for 3 sets of 3.  I missed a lot with the 205, but kept on doing reps until I got a 3rd clean one before moving onto the next set.

    I made it a point to not pull the bar any higher than my navel.  I believe that's the proper height to pull a clean?  Correct? 

     The ones I really ripped up and back and got good extension on were very easy.  This is going to take times.  But I'm going to do that complex as you've outlined.

  Great input.  Thank you very much.

All the best,
  Arden

I've only been at the lifts in earnest for 5 months now, but I'll add my $0.02.  Right now I'm still inefficient enough (meaning I get the bar higher than I need to) to have time to think during my third pull.  What I usually think is "God****it, why the f*** are you not under the bar yet!?"  I then proceed to get under the bar as fast as I can.  This usually results in an uglier lift than if I hadn't thought at all...

I agree with other posters: stop all power work.  I did and it helped tremendously.  In fact, doing power cleans/snatches feels weird to me now!  As far as getting under, I found that tall cleans/snatches really helped me.  A tall lift involves starting from a fully extended position and getting under the bar quickly.  This really helps get your footwork and the squat-under synchronized.  There are several starting positions you can use (on heels, on toes, on toes with shoulders shrugged); all are useful, and all start with the legs and hips fully extended.

Once you've got the tall lifts down, transition to the hang so you can use a bit more weight.  I found that the muscle movements I learned in the tall lifts made it simple to get deep starting from the hang.  At no point should you accept anything less than a full squat under the bar; if you catch it high, ride it down so you brain learns to get low.

Once you get comfortable getting under from the hang, transition either to below the knee or to the floor.  You can try complexes too (e.g. 1 hang, 1 below knee, 1 floor).  Again, catching it high should be avoided at all costs!  If this means having to cut yourself after each power clean, then so be it!  This is war!

Try also adding a bit of speed in the descent of your front/overhead squats.  This helped me, as I found it got the body used to the quick squat and rebound of the full lifts.

Keep working!  Unlike a lot of guys starting out, you seem to have both good flexibility and strength.  You just have to learn to use them together now...

[Chris Betancourt]

Hey, Arden, I am working through the same problem you are experiencing. I have got it pretty much down now for the snatch but have now started powercleaning much more than full clean. 

For the snatch, the following has helped me dramatically:

-High Hang Snatch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q19iGnjlJR8

The key to these is to try to use your back too much, just pop it up and focus on getting under that bar quick.

-Keeping head and back up in the pull
Again, this is what you are doing (I know cause I've been there!) your butt is coming up first then you are whipping your back to throw the bar overhead. Try to keep your head up looking forward as you pull and you should immediately feel the difference and what I'm trying to explain.

-Later after you feel confident going under the bar, powersnatch until it forces you to drop lower to catch it. You will miss many times but you will get the hang of it.

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Thanks Chris,
  Awesome advice.  Right now, I'm committing to doing the complexes - high, hang, full - on both snatch and cleans.  I was doing 205 yesterday on the cleans and I missed more than I made, but the ones that I made were awesome.  At least they felt great.  The bar didn't go any higher than my navel and I was going into the hole quicker than I can ever recall.  The main issue on the cleans was losing grip on the bar.  Which is a completely another issue altogether.  Oh to be a work in progress.

  I'm starting to realize that you really have to practice these lifts ad infinitum with weights that are taxing, but not overly taxing.  I see these lifts as a skill that is very similar to shooting free throws or similar to events in my sport.  You've got to groove the pathways and do it over and over and over and over.

  I think I'm starting to understand?

  Thanks so much for your insight.  Tall snatches and complexes here I come.

All the best,
 Arden

Hey, Arden, I am working through the same problem you are experiencing. I have got it pretty much down now for the snatch but have now started powercleaning much more than full clean. 

For the snatch, the following has helped me dramatically:

-High Hang Snatch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q19iGnjlJR8
The key to these is to try to use your back too much, just pop it up and focus on getting under that bar quick.

-Keeping head and back up in the pull
Again, this is what you are doing (I know cause I've been there!) your butt is coming up first then you are whipping your back to throw the bar overhead. Try to keep your head up looking forward as you pull and you should immediately feel the difference and what I'm trying to explain.

-Later after you feel confident going under the bar, powersnatch until it forces you to drop lower to catch it. You will miss many times but you will get the hang of it.

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

I think I just figured it out.

It will take me months to do it - practicing a lot.

But the cue for me is - "pull, pop and drop."

In the mean time, all my snatches and cleans are going to be in drill fashion - tall, hang, and full.

Thanks to all for the time and effort.  I'll keep a journal here of my progres and youtube some of the clips.  I'm missing a lot of lifts, but I'm making more than I'm missing.  And the number of misses lessens each session.

All the best,
 Arden

[Gary Valentine]

interesting topic,Arden. everything in it confirms how i lift and coach - no power versions, and theyre the worst thing to teach to a beginner in most cases. at best they are a different thing - to learn and "think" as you say" than the full lift. timing is different. yes, some athletes can do both easier than others, but i still think theyre largely a waste of time, hindering progress more than many think. ive probly not done a power clean in 30 years - since i met Joe Mills who didnt allow them - and do mostly the full lifts and squat cleans and snatches from the hang. FWIW, i matched my lifetime best  a few weeks ago with 155kg hang clean, weighing 107, and im 51. i coach by having my athletes - after establishing proper squat form and depth- learn the movement top down, using the clean from full extension with empty bar. i dont want them thinking of lifting the bar higher than waist hieght, sincethat blows the timing, as youve learned the hard way.

What to think (if anything) ? as joe mills said - stand up, jump down. reach standing height with good body alignment and the bar should be moving past your belly button with a little momentum. activating the arms before this will pull the body out of position with big weight, not pull the bar up. thats why many cant do sq versions after so called power cleaning or snatching. thats why you can do a goood weight from berhind neck - youre aready in position.  then the question is how fast can you get to the full squat, NOT how much higher you can pull it . when power cleans encourage pulling it higher after standing up, they are a detraction from learning the timing of the sq versions. every lift should be the same position regardless of weight. and to those who say you cant sq cl or sq sn a light wight, check out the ironmind vid that startswith mutlu snatching (i forget which year). hes doing 40 kg sn warmup lightning fast and flying down into full oh sq like a bullet.

if you have to think, think of getting under the bar as quickly as you can after standing up to full height. after a few thousand you wont be thinking at all, and you'll see how much you can lift. -g

[Arden Cogar Jr.]

Gary,
 WOW a 155 Hang Clean at 51!!! Now that's inspiration.  There's hope for me yet!!! 

  Thanks so much for the reinforcement. I'm staying light and working on drills until  I get it.  I'm going to gradually increase the number of sets I'm doing per session, but I'm keeping the weight the same for the next month or so.  I want to increase the number of times I do this drill until I feel comfortable going into the hole.

Here's what I did yesterday.  I missed a lot.  I've found that I'm still dipping down on my talls, so I'm going to stop that next session.  I've also found I really have to lean and throw my head back in order to get my body position right.  I know that many don't advocate that (even though Dimas thrived off it) - but I like the way it feels and it feels comfortable to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Itz9dmUFuA

Thanks again for all the imput.  Like some, I'm a big time work in progress.

All the best,
  Arden

[Fred Fialco]

Arden - I will preface this by saying many on this board are far more knowledgeable on these matters than me.  However, I'll throw this out there and see if it passes the peer review process.....

As it was explained to me, the third pull is just that - a pull.  The lifter is aggressively pulling themselves down under the bar.  So, it is not much "dropping" under the bar, which implies a more passive movement, as it is "pulling" down under the bar, which is a very active movement.  This active movement facilitates the necessary acceleration of the body downward, to get in the receiving position and beat the bar from crashing down on unset arms.

Also, in looking at the video, a pointer that has been made to me constantly, is the importance of keeping your elbows high and up (as opposed to letting them drop early and having them pointing back) in the third pull.  This will enable a much straighter bar path up the torso (closer to the body) and eliminate the need to chase the bar (jump forward) and missing lifts out front.  If you did a freeze frame, you should see yourself looking like a scarecrow as you begin to reverse direction and pull yourself down under the bar.