Author Topic: What do you tell yourself when going into the third pull?  (Read 4415 times)

Offline Tom Weary

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Re: What do you tell yourself when going into the third pull?
« Reply #8 on: Oct 21, 2008, 03:34 PM »
Hips, hips, hips...this applies not only to the final pull, but also as a reminder when you first pull the bar off the ground to use your hip strength.

The most efficient lift is when the bar is lifted the least altitude.  Olympic lifting is all about getting under the bar as fast as you can, before gravity has a chance to do its thing.  A perfect snatch will feel weightless, because you are in fact moving under the bar faster than gravity can pull it down.  The mental image to hold is that of a gymnast on a high bar - you want to pull yourself around the bar, not the bar around your body.

My suggestion is that you never again do any power snatches or power cleans.  You are obviously very strong from the video.  Start light and focus on hang snatches (snatch from your waist).  Your technique should always be the same, just go faster and faster as the bar gets heavier.  Watch videos of the world champions, like the 2005 and 2006 WCs on this site.  Notice how they slide the bar up their thighs, and then explode with their hips to drive the bar high enough to then pull themselves underneath and catch it overhead.  At the elite level, it's all about hip and leg strength, not upper body strength, simply because the weights are too heavy.  The top guys now snatch 85 to 90% of their jerks, whereas most Americans are stuck around 75%, making us less competitive internationally.  I suspect the reason has more to do with snatch technique than power.

Also, when you do front squats and snatch squats you want to focus on getting as deep as possible.  You want your bottom position to be as strong as possible.  Flexibility will come with time and heavy weights (I only do doubles and singles).  Snatch squat presses may also help you work on your bottom position.

Best of luck!
Tom Weary

Offline Arden Cogar Jr.

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Re: What do you tell yourself when going into the third pull?
« Reply #9 on: Oct 21, 2008, 04:31 PM »
Quote from: Dave Almeida
A key would be to start out with bar and then 40kg trying to do a full snatch properly.

I think Dave's advice is critical, in all your lifts and assistant exercises including drop snatches. Don't go heavier than what you can do consistently, smoothly, and to a full squat (cleans, snatches, drop snatches) and I would avoid doing power snatches and power cleans until you can consistently and smoothly do the squat versions of the lifts. I would suggest you learn the split jerk as well.

That makes perfect sense to me.  No more power movements for me.  Just had a session where I worked up to 165 for a double doing the full squat snatch.  I think it was a little too heavy given that I competed on Sunday; but I was pleased at getting the movement.  I went to do a second set and missed the first rep.  But, as written above, I was cool with it. 

On the split jerk, i have patella tendon problem with my right leg and every time I split jerk, I aggrevate the tendon.  My goal is to eventually learn the squat jerk. I have a lot of shoulder flexibility and I can do them with the lighter weights really easy.  I can also dead stop a lot of weight out of the hole with that position. 

Thanks again for everything.  I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and efforts.

all the best,
 Arden

Offline Arden Cogar Jr.

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Re: What do you tell yourself when going into the third pull?
« Reply #10 on: Oct 21, 2008, 04:38 PM »
Hips, hips, hips...this applies not only to the final pull, but also as a reminder when you first pull the bar off the ground to use your hip strength.

The most efficient lift is when the bar is lifted the least altitude.  Olympic lifting is all about getting under the bar as fast as you can, before gravity has a chance to do its thing.  A perfect snatch will feel weightless, because you are in fact moving under the bar faster than gravity can pull it down.  The mental image to hold is that of a gymnast on a high bar - you want to pull yourself around the bar, not the bar around your body.

My suggestion is that you never again do any power snatches or power cleans.  You are obviously very strong from the video.  Start light and focus on hang snatches (snatch from your waist).  Your technique should always be the same, just go faster and faster as the bar gets heavier.  Watch videos of the world champions, like the 2005 and 2006 WCs on this site.  Notice how they slide the bar up their thighs, and then explode with their hips to drive the bar high enough to then pull themselves underneath and catch it overhead.  At the elite level, it's all about hip and leg strength, not upper body strength, simply because the weights are too heavy.  The top guys now snatch 85 to 90% of their jerks, whereas most Americans are stuck around 75%, making us less competitive internationally.  I suspect the reason has more to do with snatch technique than power.

Also, when you do front squats and snatch squats you want to focus on getting as deep as possible.  You want your bottom position to be as strong as possible.  Flexibility will come with time and heavy weights (I only do doubles and singles).  Snatch squat presses may also help you work on your bottom position.

Best of luck!

Wow!!! Excellent advice!!! Thanks so much.

I will do as you have written, only full movements from now on.

I'm very blessed with being overly flexible, so the depth is not an issue.  I've been an avid "yoga-ier" for several years now.  The stability on the other hand is something I will need to obtain over time.  Adaptation is my friend, but , unfortunately, my age is not.  Better late than never I always say.

Would dead stops out of the hole on front and back squats help with this?  I'm not adverse to do pause squats out of the hole either.

When you say, Hips, hips, hips?  What do you mean?  I want to understand and make sure I get the impression you're intending.

Thanks again for everything.  Means a lot to me.

All the best,
 Arden

Offline Andy Dick

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Re: What do you tell yourself when going into the third pull?
« Reply #11 on: Oct 21, 2008, 08:51 PM »
I am just going to answer your title "on what I tell myself..."  1 of 2 things. First, this was told to me by John Thrush and it made a lot of sense "jump to full extension."  Since that is what I have trouble with is cutting my extension short.  The other thing is I try to think of nothing at all.  This sounds weird but I sometimes struggle with paralysis by analysis or just get caught up thinking how heavy it is and if I just do it things sometimes turn out better.  Now this is especially true when I add them together, on the lighter sets I think "jump" when it starts to get heavier I just do it and don't think about it.  I think more on lighter weights to start to try to ingrain better technique and hope it carrys over to the actual lifts.  This probably doesn't make a lot of sense but usually when I hit a new PR its because I just did the weight and thought nothing about how heavy it was or thought about technique during the lift.  Thats just me though and my 2 cents.

Offline Brooke Burkhalter

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Re: What do you tell yourself when going into the third pull?
« Reply #12 on: Oct 21, 2008, 09:40 PM »
If you have patella problem get an ace bandage, cut in half and wrap moderately tight around the patella area/lower knee. See klokov and some early Dimas.

I am a beginner/novice and everyone has been very helpful. I have a weakness in the bottom as well and these guys are leading you the right way on focusing on full lifts. I worked up to a bodyweight snatch reasonably quick but could power snatch a couple kilos less so I should have been higher on full lift. What I have done just this week is start even my lightest warmups as full lifts and just ride them down. I now feel more comfortable in the bottom position. Thanks Chris.

Offline Arden Cogar Jr.

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Re: What do you tell yourself when going into the third pull?
« Reply #13 on: Oct 22, 2008, 08:22 AM »
I am just going to answer your title "on what I tell myself..."  1 of 2 things. First, this was told to me by John Thrush and it made a lot of sense "jump to full extension."  Since that is what I have trouble with is cutting my extension short.  The other thing is I try to think of nothing at all.  This sounds weird but I sometimes struggle with paralysis by analysis or just get caught up thinking how heavy it is and if I just do it things sometimes turn out better.  Now this is especially true when I add them together, on the lighter sets I think "jump" when it starts to get heavier I just do it and don't think about it.  I think more on lighter weights to start to try to ingrain better technique and hope it carrys over to the actual lifts.  This probably doesn't make a lot of sense but usually when I hit a new PR its because I just did the weight and thought nothing about how heavy it was or thought about technique during the lift.  Thats just me though and my 2 cents.

Andy,
  This too makes a lot of sense. 

  Over the past few years, I've spent a lot of time reading about psychology of sport. And what you've written follows exactly what's described in the books.

  Possibly the best one I've found, and the easiest read, is the "Inner Game of Tennis."  In that book, and I'm paraphrasing of course, the author divides your body into two persons - the doer and the thinker (again I'm paraphrasing).  What happens is the thinker has the ability to override the doer's ability by simply thinking too much.

   All the best,
 Arden

Offline Arden Cogar Jr.

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Re: What do you tell yourself when going into the third pull?
« Reply #14 on: Oct 22, 2008, 08:26 AM »
If you have patella problem get an ace bandage, cut in half and wrap moderately tight around the patella area/lower knee. See klokov and some early Dimas.

I am a beginner/novice and everyone has been very helpful. I have a weakness in the bottom as well and these guys are leading you the right way on focusing on full lifts. I worked up to a bodyweight snatch reasonably quick but could power snatch a couple kilos less so I should have been higher on full lift. What I have done just this week is start even my lightest warmups as full lifts and just ride them down. I now feel more comfortable in the bottom position. Thanks Chris.

Brooke,
  My patella tendon issue is more the jolt I get from doing the jerk.  If I don't turn my toes out enough on the power jerks, I aggrevate it as well.  But it really screams when I do split jerks.  But I haven't done them for a while, so I'll give them a go during my next session.

   Today when I front squat, I'll practice sitting in the hole with a heavier weight.  Just to work on my stability.  I'll do it after my regular training.  My goal is to do 225x5, 275x4, 315x3, 335x2, then 355 for 1.  I'll put 385 or 405 on the bar and go down with it and sit in the hole then dump it in the rack. 

   Thanks for the time and effort.

All the best,
 Arden

Offline Arden Cogar Jr.

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Re: What do you tell yourself when going into the third pull?
« Reply #15 on: Oct 22, 2008, 02:23 PM »
If you have patella problem get an ace bandage, cut in half and wrap moderately tight around the patella area/lower knee. See klokov and some early Dimas.

I am a beginner/novice and everyone has been very helpful. I have a weakness in the bottom as well and these guys are leading you the right way on focusing on full lifts. I worked up to a bodyweight snatch reasonably quick but could power snatch a couple kilos less so I should have been higher on full lift. What I have done just this week is start even my lightest warmups as full lifts and just ride them down. I now feel more comfortable in the bottom position. Thanks Chris.

Brooke,
  Did my stability set with a heavier weight on my front squats....holy crap.  Took 365 down into the hole and sat with it for about 5 to 7 seconds.  Buddha gives his regards.  :)thumbsup  Nice.   I'm going to do that with every front squat session.   Even the light days.

   I can raw back squat, olympic style, in the mid 5s, but my best front squat is 370.  I've got to get that a bit closer.  I think these bottom position overloads may be the key.

  Thanks so much for your insight.

All the best,
  Arden