Topic: Value of scientific research for weightlifting

[Rhys Lucero]

For example, when my son was at the OTC they (Stone, et al) were doing some "research" which involved these guys pulling on a fixed bar, like an isometric. Stone told him that he was weak and that Doreen Heldt has more "power" than he. Now, at the time Jeff was able to front squat 220 and we all know how that compares to what others do. I wonder what he was trying to prove.

[Michael Hartman]

I wasn't there for the comment in question, but I did help develop the test being used (or something very similar).

The athletes performed a maximal isometric pull at a position determined through video analysis of an actual lift (knee angle, hip angle) on a force plate.  Following the isometric pull the athlete would perform a dynamic pull, basically a mid-thigh shrug, with 30% of the max value obtained, and one at a constant weight (~120 kg) using the force plate and linear transducers to measure bar velocity.  The tests were used to measure isometric peak force and isometric RFD; dynamic peak force, RFD, and peak power.

There have been quite a few studies published, or in press, giving more detail of all the methods.

[Mike Wittmer]

Rhys, Jeff and I are both aware of the meaning of power and isometrics.  I put the word "power" in quotes because that is exactly what Stone said.  Could he have been teasing?  Maybe, but he was not taken that way.  My guess is that he thought he was talking to a teenage kid who, although he had reached a fairly high level and had essentially been raised weightlifting, wouldn't know the difference in the terms.  My son was insulted.  

I don't know what is in the USOC budget for research, but has anything come out of there that has put even five kilos on any weightlifter's total?  Please tell me so.  What research has been put out there that did or can help US weightlifting?

How about this?  Take whatever is in the research budget and give it to someone like Glenn Pendlay.  I bet in five years he has 3/4 of the junior world team coming from his program.   Maybe three years.

[Steve Gough]

I do not want to create a firestorm here. I just want to speak the truth as I know it. I CANNOT claim that I have benefitted from any of Dr. Stone's research. Not an attack, just a fact.

I think I would be more inclined to listen to Dr. Stone if he actually designed a concept that works, that could be realized in a program that attacks our results and plants us on high atop the medal and team standings. He has had plenty of time in which to do this and I am still waiting. For a short period of time several years ago I watched him work with two lifters from Great Britain (Scotland?)... gentlemen both, as is Mike Stone. I was not or am not impressed with what they did or what he preached. It may have looked correct on paper, but paper is not where it is at. The athletes over the years that have benefitted from their association with me wasn't because of x's and o's. Learning from one's enemies (in our case competitors)  give us a more egual-footing, and bringing out the real fighting spirit in an individual is where our contribution as coaches really lies.

I'll say this again, we need to hold everyone's feet to the fire. No one should have a free ride or escape accoutability. I am flattered that Mike Wittmer compliments me so. In reality it is his sincerity to see his son achieve, and his own willingness to keep his mind open that allows  his son Jeff the chance to succeed.

Steve

[mikeburgener]

i have to agree with steve and his comments.  if it ain't working---change it!!!

[Mike Wittmer]

Jon, your point regarding research, and Mike Stone's particularly, being helpful to strength coaches is well taken.  I know that helps weightlifting indirectly with the NSCA types.  I have spoken at the Missouri Strength Coaches Association meeting a couple of times and they are very interested in the use of the lifts for improving athletic performance.  But, they are not interested in developing weightlifters.  

As for what is "wrong," well, we were one lift away from sending zero men to the Olympics.  I think that is wrong.  We need to help guys like you, coaches in the trenches running programs that our future hopes rely on.

[glennpendlay]

i like dr. stone, and think hes a nice guy.  i also think he knows a bunch about strength training.

but, are his methods  all applicable for weightlifting training?  well, michael hartman and i have discussed this at length, and i also know that michael h. has discussed this with dr. stone.

my feeling after trying many of the things he advocates, is that they are very good for getting stronger, but not as applicable for high level athletes or for getting maximal effeciency out of a lifter close to a contest.

dr. stone advocates a program based off of 4 days training a week, 2 on the pulling motions and 2 on squatting and overhead work.  this is a pretty good program i think for getting stronger.  for  a young lifter who needs a lot more strength, you could do a lot worse.  when josh wells was coming back from a back injury and trying to get his strength back to the level that was needed to make a run at the junior world team, he used this program for a while, of course we switched to our normal program of doing the lifts more as nationals got closer.  it is maybe illistrative to know that before junior nationals josh was still using the stone program a few weeks out, and was at his absolutely strongest ever on the squat and pull, but only clean and jerked 155.  at nationals, when he had been back on our normal program of lifts, lifts, and more lifts, he clean and jerked 165 to make junior worlds even though i think that his back squat was actually down a little.  

this doesnt mean i dont think a guy should use that type of program, it means that i think it has its place, depending on the time in the career of the lifter and in the part of the training year relative to big contests.  one of the major differences i have with a guy like gough is that i DO NOT think a lifter should be on a "bulgarian" program their whole career, and even when at a high level i dont think it should be a year round thing.

now, i think that a lot of you would disagree with the statement that "money spent on dr. stone has reaped huge benefits for USAW".  in fact i would disagree with that statement myself, although i am not sure what money the USAW has spent on him, maybe none.  but if we had spent some, im not sure it was well spent.  and this is not an indictment of stone, but to have reaped rewards, two things must have happened, first, we would have had to take his "advice" to heart and used it, second, it would have had to have helped move us up in the world weightlifting rankings.  i dont think even the first ever happened.

here is the problem, as i see it, in any negative thoughts toward stone for what he does and what he thinks.

you hire a guy like that, and he is a known quantity.  you KNOW what he thinks, you KNOW what he does, what type of research he does, where and how he is going to spend the money and for what results.  so if you hire him, fund him, listen to him...  well thats your choice.  but having hired him, having cooperated with him, etc., you cant very well then say, hey, he didnt do what we wanted or needed.  look, if stone's thing wasnt what you needed, you shouldnt have hired him or listened to him.  he was not an unknown quantity.

let me give you a small example of what i mean.  if someone hired me as the "recruitment person" or "person in charge of increasing the talent pool for USAW" then they would darn know what they would get.  they should KNOW that i would pick 2-3 places in the US to concentrate on, more if there was more money, and set up scholarship programs to a few colleges with coaches who knew how to recruit, then go out and act like a football recruiter, visiting 100's of high schools, talking to strength coaches, getting the word out about the scholarship opportunities, setting up try-out times at the different colleges, and working to get the concept of training for and competing for these scholarships insinuated deep within the culture of as many high schools as possible.  i would try to leverage whatever amount of money i had to give out into a widespread knowledge, as widespread over as many states and regions and towns and schools as possible, that a weightlifting scholarship is just as real of an opportunity as a football or volleyball scholarship, and if you want it, then these are the things you should be doing in high school to help yourself get it.

now, if i was hired to do this, pigs were flying and snowballs were rolling around in hell, then one might argue with the administration of USAW about the wisdom of hiring me.  one might argue with them about the wisdom of this, the unfairness of this, whatever.  but you would sure as heck not have any reason to critisize ME for choosing to pursue this path.  becasue unless you just joined the sport yesterday, then you KNOW, and the people who hired me absolutely KNEW, that this is what i would do, this is how i would do it, and if they hired me, then knowing this, this is EXACTLY what they hired me to do.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Glenn,

Good post. I would also like to add that I am almost positive that Dr. Stone is in no way an employee of the USAW, nor, do I think, has he ever been. He now works for the USOC, as far as I know.

He is a scientist and he does research. Some of it could and should be considered practical research aimed at improving weightlifting knowledge and results. And, some of it is basic research, not aimed at such an obvious result but instead geared simply to find out something new which may or may not be useful to weightlifting. He also does research related to many other sports. When doing research, it is possible that you will discover nothing new or of value. It is also possible that you will discover the most important thing ever in the field. In order to find out which will happen, the research must be conducted. Research is often valuable as well when it demonstrates that an idea doesn't work or isn't important. This can eliminate useless paths for future research or lead others in a new, more promising direction.

As a coach and a scientist, I have found reading many of Dr. Stone's articles very thought-provoking and insightful. Does this mean any of them have changed my philosophy developed through almost twenty years experience in the sport? Maybe, but probably not. My coaches, John T. Thrush and Dragomir Cioroslan, have had a much bigger impact on my philosophy, I am sure, not to mention what I think I have learned from my own experiences through the process.

Basically, I am saying that Dr. Stone is a great scientist who has done much for our sport, but expecting him to turn our country's weightlifting performance around single-handedly is a bit much. Still, I do agree generally that it would be very nice and helpful to see more practical/applied research in weightlifting and less basic. But, thats life, has little to do with an individual scientist like Dr. Stone, and I am a coach, after all.