Topic: Press-out rule OFFICIALLY dead (of pneumonia a la the emperor's clothes)

[Rolando Rodriguez]

Weight does correlate extremely well with strength and OL totals.  But so does height, since weight and height are pretty tightly correlated as well.  Should we not then give the tie to the taller lifter?  After all, naive physics says that the taller man has done more work on the same weight (the actual situation is more complicated I know).

Physical condition also correlates well with total.  If one lifter planned his peak better than another, then we should expect him to have a better performance.  Would the tie then go to the man who was at the lower performance level?  "Hey, I was overtrained and I still lifted as much weight as you!"

The problem here is that at this level you often are faced with lifters who are pretty close on just about every conceivable body measure.  It would seem to me that the only way to break a tie based on anthropometry would be if there were a sum of several measures that clearly leaned in favor of one of the lifters.  For instance, weight, height, lever lengths, etc. could be combined into a metric for tie-breaking.  Sorry, but 1 extra decagram on the scale doesn't convince me one lifter is worse than another at the same total.  What if it's just fat or water?  What if it's a more developed ear twitching muscle?  5kg would convince me, but how often does this happen within a class (and does it even matter for the supers?)?  Besides, if we believe THAT strongly in body weight then we would use Sinclairs to adjust totals in all competitions, not just qualifications!

The fact is that the relationship between body weight and total is a) statistical, and thus prone to variation; and b) correlative, so that there may be other things (e.g. genetics) that increase both the total and body weight at the same time.  A rule that uses precise body weight as a tie-breaker is assuming extremely small variations among total for a given precise weight, and I don't see how this could be the case.  It is also ignoring other factors, such as genetics and total training time, that could actually be more important than weight in predicting total.

I think the performance based measures people have listed (2nd best total, fewest reds, etc.) would allow for a fair tie-breaking system that avoids the randomness inherent in body measures.  I mean, come on, imagine how much more fun weight selection would become if your 2nd best total would break a tie!  In fairness, though, such a system would still be random due to the random nature of rule enforcement (true in all sports).

My .0000000000000002 euros.

[Craig Vandeweghe]

I like that idea. The 2nd total. Reminds me the the way track and fields deals with ties. The best overall performance wins the tie.

[Dave Chiu]

Another idea is to reward the biggest weight lifted...

WHAT A CONCEPT!!

In other words, the biggest C&J wins a Total tie.

If the tie is in both lifts, THEN go to the CUMULATIVE Total (rewarding the more consistent lifter, since if you miss even one more than the other guy, he'll win).

That's basically the system they use in the HJ and PV, which most resemble lifting in the PRE-SELECTION of the goal to be mastered.

If it's all considered a crapshoot because of inconsistent judging, well I have an answer for that too, but better to give at another time.

At the very least, advantage should only be given based on lighter bdwt under TWO CONDITIONS:

-- the above performance-based criteria have all come up tied, and...

-- the lighter lifter is AT LEAST 1.0 KG LIGHTER.

[John Way]

IF ANYTHING owl deserves more medal how about snatch and total golds? for total of 90 medals

[Shaun Le Conte]

Weight does correlate extremely well with strength and OL totals.  But so does height, since weight and height are pretty tightly correlated as well.  Should we not then give the tie to the taller lifter?  After all, naive physics says that the taller man has done more work on the same weight (the actual situation is more complicated I know).

The problem here is that at this level you often are faced with lifters who are pretty close on just about every conceivable body measure.  It would seem to me that the only way to break a tie based on anthropometry would be if there were a sum of several measures that clearly leaned in favor of one of the lifters.  For instance, weight, height, lever lengths, etc. could be combined into a metric for tie-breaking.  Sorry, but 1 extra decagram on the scale doesn't convince me one lifter is worse than another at the same total.  What if it's just fat or water?  What if it's a more developed ear twitching muscle?  5kg would convince me, but how often does this happen within a class (and does it even matter for the supers?)?  Besides, if we believe THAT strongly in body weight then we would use Sinclairs to adjust totals in all competitions, not just qualifications!

The fact is that the relationship between body weight and total is a) statistical, and thus prone to variation; and b) correlative, so that there may be other things (e.g. genetics) that increase both the total and body weight at the same time.  A rule that uses precise body weight as a tie-breaker is assuming extremely small variations among total for a given precise weight, and I don't see how this could be the case. 

Great post!

What's worse about using bodyweight for tie breakers is that nobody actually weighs what they weighed in at during the lifting competition, and the lighter guy may not have been lighter the day before - depending how far they dehydrated themselves to make weight.

IF ANYTHING owl deserves more medal how about snatch and total golds? for total of 90 medals

72 medals, John at least for the men :) You won't be in Brisbane in December will you?

[John Way]

I never said there should be a jerk medal Shaun, so 45 X2 = 90 still! No i probably will not be in Brisbane in december , be prepared for warm weather, and enjoy the trip out to the Sleeman sports complex, out in the sticks lol

And if you cant jerk enough for a total medal then what can I say..........http://www.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5701652,00.jpg