Topic: Cheaters

[steve zeigman]

Chris,

Jones was caught, one way or the other, or you wouldn't be talking about her. I don't prejudice myself against anyone by race, creed, color, or in this case country...do you? 

A vote alone doesn't make a Democracy. In a Democracy we don't falsely accuse and convict someone with lack of evidence do we? If we do we're a tyranny and not a Democracy.  I support WADA. I do not suppot unfounded convictions of hard working sportmen and sportswomen, on a blanket generalized prejudice feeling, based on country affiliation or any other unsubstantiated whim.

The denial of proof is one thing. The lack of proof is another. When you prove it becomes a fact and get them gone. If you don't prove it's not a fact and they stay. That's pretty plain and simple. fair and square, American and Democratic, and black and white!

So in finality, already, the only one we know is a cheater is the one that's caught and banned by evidence, not hearsay, public opinion, personal prejudice, or messages from God and the beyond!

To deny that is to deny yourself any credibility on this issue in my opinion.

[Gary Valentine]

steve, not looking to have you arrested :-), just wondering if you took any of the substances, before or after they were banned, and what you felt the effects were. it came up in the thread as to how we could tell if someone is on the stuff by how much they were lifting, so i think its long enough after the fact that since you lifted in that era you might provide some first hand experience. 10% would be enough of a difference to lend credence to what dave and chris i belive are saying above, that any more than a given level would lend suspicion.

and yes, Bobby's my cousin, he's over in Japan now. steroids were a big problem for AMerican baseball, and still are. coaches are in the same boat as others when questioning whether players are using, they have to be  able to prove it in a court of law before making allegations. its a mess, and as long as you have people that are willing to cheat, they will find a way unfortunatley.

very ironic and sad, athletes put themselves up as role models, or at least want their "accomplishments" respected. Yet they are willing to go against the stated rules, rationalizing that "everyone else is doing it", and thats the opposite of what a true Champion, a Leader, should do. just part of the lowering of moral fabric we see thorughout society.-g

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Steve,

Prejudice has nothing to do with it. You seemed focused on, as you said, "foreign" athletes. I therefore cited an American that absolutely proved the system could be beat. But, there is also the case of the extremely well documented cheating done by the East Germans and Soviets, which was also not detected and did not come out until their governments fell and internal documentation of the systematic doping was exposed.

All of this obviously refutes your assertion that positive tests are absolute proof that the system works perfectly, which you sort of admitted wasn't true already when you said not all the cheaters could be caught. And, it obviously refutes your assertion that only a positive test can indicate cheating. Jones and the other "Clear" abusers were not caught by the system. And, USADA, WADA, and Victor Conte ALL admit there are many holes in the system, but for some reason you will not. So, your position is a little hard to follow, or swallow.

[steve zeigman]

Chris Gary and others,

I've had about enough of this nonsense.

Gary go ask your cheater / user question to the USA lifters who've used and cheated, been tested, caught, and suspended legally for anabolic steroids.

Chris, go accuse and suspend any athlete you want from the US or another country for using / cheating with what you haven't proven they've used and cheated with.

I'm not upset! An A & B positive is not an opinion.

Good day to you Sirs.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Steve,

I don't quite see why you are upset. You stated your opinion and we are trying to understand it in light of the facts mentioned. But, of course, whether you continue the discussion is entirely up to you.

Cheers

[Roman Hunt]

Steroids are worthless at competition time. They are training aids. You cycle them just like lifting workouts and cycle down just like you de-load training right before a comp. Testing at competition time is almost silly and anyone found 'on' at that point is a fool.

[thomasmwaguespack]

good morning gentlemen/ladies.  lets get right to it,if anyone is caught cheating on the first test a or b they should be banned for life,no second chances to find a better way to cheat .

[Dave Almeida]

Steroids are worthless at competition time.

Incorrect. Testosterone derivatives also stimulate the nervous system which is another reason (other than cutting weight), IMO, you used to see the 80's Russians claim mind boggling training lifts but never come even close to them in meets.