Topic: Cheaters

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

So please again explain to me...I'm really trying so hard to find ways to understand you, how you can have evidence that the system is being beaten, until someone is caught, and there is a positive test?  When that happens the system has worked not been beaten!

Yes, that is definitely different logic than I am employing. Lifters get caught in out of competition testing just weeks months after passing in competition testing, and you say well they passed that test so they must have been clean then and just now decided to cheat. I say it shows they got away with it, until their number came up.

Definitely a waste of time to go around and around on it. Personally, I wish I could believe there was no one getting away with it, but it simply is absurd. You WANT to believe no one is cheating and getting away with it, for some mysterious reason. In fact, I would say the word want isn't strong enough, you simply are DETERMINED to believe no one could get away with it, despite all evidence to the contrary. Sure, Bulgaria, Iran, Greece, Russia, Turkey, India, etc, etc all just suddenly one day decided to cheat en masse and got caught the next day....

[steve zeigman]

That's my point...they get caught!

So its only a matter of time for a cheater.  But to not get caught for a lifetime...year after year...is not possible in my opinion. And most that set records do win for a lifetime without testing positive. 

I personally don't think too many, high ranking lifters, who have been caught once do it again. Look at the Polish middle heavy that medaled today, he's been caught cheating once already...hasn't he?  Look what he lifted...wow! Do you think if he tests negative for today he was cheating anyway?

Chris, you cannot catch every cheater every time, just like you cannot catch every criminal every time...but you sure can catch them when they have a gangland meeting like a World Championships, European Championships, Asian Championships and especially the Olympic Games.

And if not then WADA is flawed both here and abroad...but it's getting better all the time...isn't it?

BTW: how long does it take for a test result to come back?  Is it in days...so they can be claiming already that so far all the Weightlifters at the Olympics have tested negative.

Cheers

[steve zeigman]

Chris and others...is China the only place in the world where there is claims of gene doping?  Are they the only country in the world where this gene manipulation has successfully been done? 

The links you sent me were news organizations and they have a tendency to sensationalize.  Are there no substative "peer review" abstracts available? I mean where does the information that gene doping works better than anabolic steroids and is safer for athletic enhancement come from?

You know while I was watching the games today I kept thinking smelling salts should be banned as they also give athletic enhancement. And also any man made biochemical thing that aids in protein assimilation or red blood oxygenation should be banned. If it's man made and enhances kill it!

[Dave Almeida]

i apologize to everyone for having a mental block. I know your doing you best to try to explain things to me so I understand.

So please again explain to me...I'm really trying so hard to find ways to understand you, how you can have evidence that the system is being beaten, until someone is caught, and there is a positive test?  When that happens the system has worked not been beaten!

Or if the system is being beaten, without the evidence of a positive test, then it might be possible that it is being beaten in the US without evidence too.

This is why it makes no sense to me. I guess I'm just an evidence kind of guy, who doesn't believe that someone beats the test and then...oops gets caught. For instance it could be Matlu was clean until he got older and slower and took a chance. Could be you'll never catch every cheater just like they'll never catch every criminal. But its pretty much for sure that a positive A and B specimen is a cheater.

You know sometimes the information and logic I'm being given sounds more like the 3 mile island nuclear plant problem where the system worked, no accident took place, but the program was disbanded anyway because everyone knew an accident took place.

Maybe we should let this thread drop.  Yes I think that would be best for you all since I've heard nothing that convinces me or proves that there are invisible positives everywhere but in the USA!  Or that if not for invisible positives we'd be winning world medals.

 Steve,
   They are doing the same totals as drugged up lifters have done in the past and they don't get caught. How is this not evidence? Humans are just evolving that fast? Training and technique have not evolved THAT much the past 20 years to account for the different between clean lifters and drug users. It really isn't that hard of a concept.

There are plenty of steroid forums on the internet, most focus on bodybuilding but if you want to study how each individual drug differs in chemical structure and what that means for testability you will be able to see how they can get away with standard drugs such as testosterone (depending on the ester it could be out of your system in 24 hours). The only way you are catching that is by luck, especially if they give the lifters any sort of notice that they are showing up, which I'm sure happens in some countries where WADA officials may have to travel to and go through customs.
 
I'm getting sick of this doping nonsense, just let them do it already. Its not going anywhere. Chris probably hate s this idea  but.. I think these Olympics reinforce that especially if very few (maybe even 0) get busted in weightlifting. It just shows that the dopers are that far ahead of the tests once again.

 If anyone thinks WADA is doing a good job of enforcement they must be blind. It is too expensive for WADA (how do they get their funding anyways?) to conduct comprehensive OOC tests for every sport in every country twice a month and the countries' organizations will forever be unreliable as long as medals and national glory are at stake. At the rate people are beating testing and still breaking world records, WADA may end up just being another excuse for big time scientists to make a buck off of sports, except they are doing it "for the good of sport".

Bleh, I'm done posting about this doping nonsense and going back to just enjoying juiced up Ilya clean 226kg like a feather.

[steve zeigman]

This has been a most interesting and enjoyable discourse on drugs, cheaters, and WADA testing. It has been polite, educational, on an emotionally charged subject. This is truely the way a Forum should be as a Senate...not a mob circus. Thank you Jon and Chris!

I agree with you and I listen to the soundness of your comment reply! However, I don't think WADA should be abandoned. WADA serves useful purpose!

And I do think that in 4 generations of weightlifting (10 year blocks) it is possible to lift the weights I'm seeing drug free...but not by everyone.

USA Frank Capsurous did 440 lb. C & J (439.5) at 198 lb. BW in 1970. That's 38 years ago. 

What was done by 198 lb. lifters 38 years before that...400 lb or less?

So that's about 1 lb. of improvement in world standard C & J per year.

Technique has gotten better with improved coaching science and lifting equipment.

The amount of training loads and acceptable number of training days changed as new information came it. Once it was believed that training more than 3 days per week would be counterproductive. 

Diets and nutritional supplementation has improved.

Sports Psychology has become a factor. 

National organizations have improved professional management which means better support.

The real explosion in lift improvement has been in Snatch and I do not think drugs are event specific. With the elimination of the Press the physical characteristics and requirements for athletic selection / success changed. The focus of the eliminated Press work into Snatch has also improved the Snatch.

For these reasons I do believe that the weights I see being lifted today can be done drug free...but not by everyone.

And YES there are many cheaters...but not all of them are.  And yes many of them get caught...but not all of them!

Thank you,
Steve

[Dave Almeida]

Well I guess we agree to disagree then  ;)

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Chris, you cannot catch every cheater every time, just like you cannot catch every criminal every time

I think you nailed it right there.

Cheers

[steve zeigman]

"Just when I think I'm out they pull me back in!"  Don Michael Corlioni

Thank You Chris.  Great forum.

I would hope we can all agree that a positive A & B specimen is a suspension the 1st time and banning for life the 2nd time? LOL