Topic: Cheaters

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Gene doping/therapy can do anything steroids can do and more, with less side effects and with far greater difficulty being detected. Obviously, it is a complex subject and the articles listed are more to show it is happening, not to explain how it works or what it can do. I would get some links on that, but I know you are strongly motivated to discount anything that contradicts your view that whoever is winning is clean. So, its obviously a waste of time.

Cheers

[Dave Chiu]

As long as winning is preferred to losing...

...many competitors will seek special advantage.

The best read on the subject is almost 20 yrs old:

"Speed Trap" by Charlie Francis (Ben Johnson's coach).

Utterly honest.

[steve zeigman]

Actually Chris, I am open minded to proven evidence. My position is everyone who is losing or winning who doesn't test positive is not a cheater and everyone who tests positive, winner or loser is cheating.

MY POSITION IS ANYONE WHO TESTS POSITIVE WITH AN A AND B SPECIMIN SHOULD BE SUSPENDED FOR 2 YEARS AND THE SECOND TIME BANNED FOR LIFE. That's the rules.

As far as gene doping being better and more dangerous than steroids, I would have no idea one way or the other. I don't know anything about gene doping other than what I read here. But I do know anabolic steroids are inventoried in the local pharmacies and prescibed by medical doctors for appropriate conditions to people who do not have conta-indicators. Is gene dope inventoried and prescribed?

Email me some literature on gene doping. I will read it! Steroid literature I have read in an unbiased and non selective way already.

Cheers my friend

BTW: That's a very strange assumption you made, that I feel everyone who is winning is clean. Does that mean you feel everyone who is winning is a user?  Which brings us back to the second part of my original Post...at what point in performance level / results does a person become a user, even if they test negative?  I think everyone who tests positive is a cheater and should be suspended or banned but no one who competes should cheat.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Actually Chris, I am open minded to proven evidence. My position is everyone who is losing or winning who doesn't test positive is not a cheater and everyone who tests positive, winner or loser is cheating.

Steve, that would be a reasonable position except for the fact that we have massive evidence that the system has consistently been beaten. On the other hand, I do not believe China is systematically gene doping. I believe there is some gene doping going on elsewhere here and there by idiots, but China is way too sophisticated to embrace such a dangerous and as yet unrefined method of doping. It makes far more sense to assume they are using a simple designer steroid. Or, to be more accurate, they are likely using several designer steroids. All it takes is to take a normal steroid and alter one molecule in it, and all of a sudden you have a custom tailored steroid to fit your needs without any chance it will be detected. China is at least several steps ahead of testing, several years at least.

[steve zeigman]

Chris, I never mentioned China.  Not once!!  You just made that assumption because they are winning and so far testing clean.

Do send me some info on Gene Doping. I do trust your scientific judgements, and I do feel that WADA needs to continue to develop proven testing that can weed the cheaters out everywhere in every country including USA but not by heresay or emotion.

[Dave Chiu]

Chris --

You may be right about the state-run machine that is China...

... BUT what about their swimmers and runners??

They were so dominant in the early 90's until some scandalous positives, and now they're pretty much nowhere.

Did they just decide to write off those sports to avoid suspicion??

Or does the right mix of powdered black woodear mushroom and canine genitals help lifting more than less explosive sports?

I believe that if the state had such a great system, they would use it all around...

... there never was an evil authoritarian govt. that could resist pushing it's advantages too far!!

Still, maybe the O-lifting establishment there just gets the $$ to win, w/ no questions asked (other than "Do you want to be shot or hung if you embarrass us?").

[steve zeigman]

i apologize to everyone for having a mental block. I know your doing you best to try to explain things to me so I understand.

So please again explain to me...I'm really trying so hard to find ways to understand you, how you can have evidence that the system is being beaten, until someone is caught, and there is a positive test?  When that happens the system has worked not been beaten!

Or if the system is being beaten, without the evidence of a positive test, then it might be possible that it is being beaten in the US without evidence too.

This is why it makes no sense to me. I guess I'm just an evidence kind of guy, who doesn't believe that someone beats the test and then...oops gets caught. For instance it could be Matlu was clean until he got older and slower and took a chance. Could be you'll never catch every cheater just like they'll never catch every criminal. But its pretty much for sure that a positive A and B specimen is a cheater.

You know sometimes the information and logic I'm being given sounds more like the 3 mile island nuclear plant problem where the system worked, no accident took place, but the program was disbanded anyway because everyone knew an accident took place.

Maybe we should let this thread drop.  Yes I think that would be best for you all since I've heard nothing that convinces me or proves that there are invisible positives everywhere but in the USA!  Or that if not for invisible positives we'd be winning world medals.

[John Way]

"Do send me some info on Gene Doping:, gee Steve, getting accurate gene doping information out of China might be as easy as promoting the Dalai Lama to head position of the China communist party?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/08/080814-gene-doping.html

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/olympics/2008-08/11/content_6922691.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25816605/