Topic: Cheaters

[Gary Valentine]

The simple answer Gary is I don't know! 

you dont know if you took drugs. ok . got it. i didnt ask you if you ever tested positive. i didnt ask you to comment on anyone else in that era. again, it was asked in the thread if we could tell if someone took the stuff by how much they lifted, so im simply asking for first hand experience, if indeed you have it on yourself or lifting partners. if you dont want to volunteer it fine. -g

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Steve,

So now you have admitted that people were able to pass the "A and B sample" while cheating beyond a doubt. But, its not recent enough to count for you now. The Marion Jones case demonstrates a large hole in testing, as both Conte, WADA and every doping expert in the World have repeatedly admitted. Take a regular steroid, change one molecule, and now it is undetectable. Testing evolves but continues to be behind the cheaters- especially the systematic cheaters. Really, the only progress is that it is getting more expensive to beat the testing, though China is driving the price down at the same time testing is driving it up. I didn't say anything about punishing athletes without proof, but on the other hand its totally absurd to maintain this faith in a system proven fallible.

[Brooke Burkhalter]

I have answered Gary again and again. I am not freaked out. My answer to him and the information he wants about steroid effects, including where to get more information, has been made clear to him over and over! If he doesn't understand it I don't know why?

FYI Let's talk about the testing today, not the East Germans and Soviets from 20 years ago, or Marion Jones from, I don't know, 12 years ago.

Or are you saying the testing has not evolved?  And if the tests have not evolved and are being beaten then you have nothing you can do about it, accept to convict, suspend, and ban athletes without the freedom right to due process. Is that what your suggesting...no due process? And just who would be making these selected convictions. suspensions, and banning without due process?   

Marion Jones is EXTREMELY relevant. Plus it was 8 years and less when she was using ONLY two Olympics ago. Here's a quote from her too...

"I will continue to express the fact I am for a drug-free sport and always will be." - Marion Jones

She was on gear while AT the 2000 Olympics. While performing and DESTROYING her competition.

Yes the test get better but those with money (countries, individuals, sponsors willing to support, etc.) have stayed one step ahead in some cases. Marion and every athlete involved in the Balco scandal is an example of it. (Alvin and Calvin Harrison, Dwain Chambers, Tim Montgomery, Kellie White, Regina Jacobs, etc.) ALL were EVADING tests UNTIL one person got pissed and jealous and sent in ONE syringe with THG residue. Without that they may have never been caught.

So a private US company was supplying the above athletes in one manner or another through one channel or another and they had there OWN steroid THEY developed. Not one country BUT ONE PRIVATE business.

It obviously is not "that" hard. With the money at stake in the Olympics and World Champs it to me is a no brainer that someone/some country is trying to and probably are getting away with it still. But that does not mean you don't try to stop it. I think testers are further ahead of the curve than before Balco due to the fact they realize first hand what athletes were doing.

[steve zeigman]

Dear Mr. Valentine and LeRoux,

From what you and Chris are saying, implying, and promoting, there maybe someone in your gym who is beating the tests right now?

Who do you think you are, Sr.?  I'm really upset at your intrusive question on philosophical, ethical and moral grounds period. YOU GOT IT!!!

Who do you think you are Sen McCarthy looking for Communists. Have you no decency Sr.? "I am not now nor I ever been a member of the communist party."

But no I have nothing to hide nor anything to prove or defend to you or anyone else.

NO...I never violated rules...period!  Nor do I know anyone else before 1972 who did either. YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND THE WORD NO?

But the USA lifters who violated rules after 1972 are on record. Go ask them your question and don't ask me on-line, who they are, because I'm not answering you that either. Their names are on record if you got the courage to name them. Or you can ask your question of use and benefit to your cousin who was a major star in the MLB when they were not being tested for use.

Good day to you Sr.,
Mr. Steven Zeigman

PS BTW: Did you or anyone you know from before 1972, when they weren't banned, ever use steroids?  

If you don't like my answer tough it out Sr. Do your research. I was a US National Champion, set US records, won a tier 3 IWF Senior International Event twice. Once before testing as a Senior and again when it was a tested event as a Master and never tested positive.


AND THAT'S ALL I'M GOING TO SAY ABOUT THIS MR. VALENTINE. OF COURSE YOU CAN MAKE WHATEFVER INUENDO YOU WANT IN THE LAST WORD EMAIL I'm SURE YOU'LL POST. IT DOESN'T MATTER. Z

[steve zeigman]

What are you guys afraid of?

We live in the 21st century. I'm sure the detection technology today is better then before when Jones got away with it, according to her.

You try to make an issue out of whether the past is the same as the present. Personally I don't know who is using or not using. Someone you know could be using for all I know...you're still in the game. Heck there might be a whole bunch of Americans beating the tests for all I know?

If the tests can be beat...how do you know? That's why my original post was how much weight lifted is low enough to be sure? And that's just it...YOU DON'T PERSONALLY KNOW...but you guess a lot!!!     

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Steve,

There is NO way any American weightlifter is paying the kind of money necessary to get designer/undetectable steroids. For what? The benefit would not outweigh the cost here. At the same time you rail against people accusing you of steroid use, which NO ONE did, you are now accusing American lifters of not only potentially using but sucking anyway- a far more offensive accusation in my mind than a simple accusation of use.

I really think it might be better for your health to avoid doping topics, and you are clearly so biased, for whatever reason, that facts can not penetrate.

Cheers

[steve zeigman]

We both support the same thing, the elimination of cheating with banned substance.

I'm as about as biased as you are in the way to do it.

I say let the test tell the tale and you say let opinion tell the tale. You finger pint at anyone and I finger point only at those that WADA tests positive. You say the whole IWF and WADA organization is anti US Weightlifting and I say they could care less about US Weightlifting.

That's basically sums it up doesn't it?

Are you sure about what they can afford and what US lifters can afford.  They do get caught don't they? There are some children of rich people and a few rich coaches here in US aren't there? How do you know what it costs if you never used?  What market do you shop at?  What athletes have told you that you don't name?

Sorry Chris but I just dislike a double standard when enforcement is in place and multi millions and millions are being spent on it instead of on sports.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

I do not believe you support elimenating drugs in weightlifting. Just my opinion.

Rich people would not spend all kinds of money to win at a sport here that pays nothing. The tests have been PROVEN fallible. I have finger pointed at no one, except to note that China has been busted thwarting the system and to predict they will get caught- within a few years. I know what it costs to beat the system because I have been doing this 22 years, still do it, have a MS in exercise science that cost me a lot of money, and pay attention.

Further, I have NO double standard. If anything, I am more harsh against Americans getting caught while you are willing to give EVERY benefit of the doubt to your beloved "foreign" cheaters and were willing to defect to the Soviet Union because the USA didn't satisfy your lust for success in the sport.