Topic: Cheaters

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Honestly, I would prefer a lifetime suspension on the 1st offense.

[Pete_Stewart]

I wrote the following before on this website but would just like to highlight it again in this particular thread.  In my opinion the introduction of gene doping in sport is still a long way down the line unless the athlete is willing to accept what are extremely real risks. The earlier report on this forum about a Chinese lab offering gene doping I would say is questionable and was probably a money making scam (how was the athlete in question going to come back later and prove the 'gene doping' he had received did not work?!).  Did the undercover journalist get any of the viral sample......I think not: 

1. There has to be an efficient and safe way of getting the gene into the correct cell type.  This would probably require a viral mediated delivery and a tissue specific promoter to prevent protein expression in wrong cell type.  The virus itself is controllable, they have removed various parts of the virus so it is replication incompetent, therefore once the cell is infected with the virus the cell itself does not become a 'virus making factory' so to speak.

2. When in the cell the gene has to be incorporated into the genome in a 'safe' place.  Some gene therapy trials have led to malignancy due to the promoter being placed upstream of oncogenes resulting in activation of genes resulting in leukemias in one particular trial.  To the best of my knowledge there has been no trials to date that have focused on targetting the DNA sequences to 'safer' parts of the genome.

3. I suspect in the future it will be possible to also detect gene doping although it is a more laborious process.  Although expressing the same protein (amino acid sequence) there may well be differences in the DNA and mRNA sequences compared to the endogenous gene.  The only way to get round this would be to clone each individual athletes DNA sequence for the protein they want overexpressed and this would result in a lengthier process.  Even then it may be possible to sequence up- and down stream of the cDNA and identify viral sequences.

[AlekoKouva]

if there were lifetime suspensions on first offences..then wada woldnt be making much money...

[Stephen Georgiou]

Chris do you have any scientific studies posted in journals that show the effects of gene doping for sports performance in humans?

There is plenty of peer reviewed stuff in mice, where the performance enhancing effects can be truly breathtaking. These give clues as to which gene targets and cellular pathways etc to target for performance enhancing effects in humans. In very general terms, the bottle neck is simply figuring out how to apply the mouse stuff to humans. People are trying for sure...whether it works or not at the moment is irrelevant. As long as there is incentive, a way will be found to get things to work.

Interestingly, many of the performance enhancing effects in mice correlate very nicely with increased life expectancy/cancer prevention etc and are touted as long sought after elixars. So there is also substantial interest/investment from health and commercial sectors into these technologies.

This most recent paper I saw just the other day gives just one example:
http://www.cell.com/content/article/abstract?uid=PIIS0092867408008386


Having said this, Jim (and others) made a very important point. There are already drugs out there that work very well indeed. They are relatively cheap, have proven effectiveness, and have been used for long enough to understand/control unwanted side effects. And people know how use them in a way that can beat testing systems.   

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

In response to a few good points, I agree and did say already that gene doping or therapy at this point is extremely risky. But, so was the Oral-Turinabol that East Germany used to such devastating effect to fairness in sport and their own athletes health! There are always athletes willing to roll the dice with their own health for victory and, even more common, there are always scumbag coaches/administrators/politicians that could care less about the athlete's long term health. Having said that, I already said that though gene doping and/or therapy is SURELY happening right now (the scientists have said they are getting lots of calls from weightlifters trying to buy the stuff and surely someone will sell it), it is clearly a small % of the cheating going on. Its a stupid path to take at this point since designer steroids are much safer at this point, get the job done fine, and can't be detected. Both gene doping/therapy and designer steroids are expensive, so if they have the money, which way would they go? Obviously, designer steroids and other tactics.

[Gary Valentine]

intersting thoughts all.
to steve- you lifted in the70's, perhaps you can shed some personal experience with us to answer the questions posed as to how much effects these drugs have. did you ever use any banned substances, if so, which ones, what dosages, and how much effect on your lifting , and long term health, do you feel they had? -g

[steve zeigman]

Gary,

Sorry, I never used any banned substance.  I don't know anyone else who did either. Can you tell me what was banned prior to 1972?

However, the USA has had several men and women lifters of high ranking that were suspended for testing positive for banned substances after 1972. Since they're on record for this, the IWF and USAW should know who they are, and maybe one of them will talk about their personal experience using these banned drugs.   

Bob Hise II the founder of Maverick BB, publisher of Olympic Lifter, and former 1st VP of the US Weightlifting Federation (predecessor to USAW) told me that an unpublished UCLA study, he read, done on steroid effects showed a 10% increase in strength. But that was unpublished and I never read it so it's hearsay, kind of like an invisible positive.

Also you might look at the medical research information on steroids and see if there is anything in that literature about the strengthening effects, since anabolic steroids are a legal, not banned, pharmaceutical medicine, prescribed by licensed rumatology medical doctors to people with severe burns, muscles weakness, and muscle atrophy conditions.

BTW: Don't you have a relation Bobby Valentine who was a baseball star? Perhaps Bobby Valentine could shed some light on the effects of anabolic steroids in sports. maybe he or someone he knows used banned substances.   

Thanks,
Z

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Steve,

Coming back to your logic that only positive tests can show doping and positive tests show the system works, doesn't the case of Marion Jones and the other abusers of "The Clear" put just a little crimp in that? I mean, they were not caught by the system because the drugs were UNDETECTABLE. They were caught because someone ratted them out. Obviously, the system has repeatedly been gamed, over many, many years. To deny that is to deny yourself any credibility on this issue in my opinion.