Topic: Cheaters

[steve zeigman]

This has been a most interesting and enjoyable discourse on drugs, cheaters, and WADA testing. It has been polite, educational, on an emotionally charged subject. This is truely the way a Forum should be as a Senate...not a mob circus. Thank you Jon and Chris!

Since there's a staunch group that doesn't trust in testing of any kind, believes in international conspiricy, and feel that China must have a new way to cheat the system that no one else in the world has or knows of...exactly what would be the performance level at which you would not think that someone - anyone is using steriods?  USA lifters and below? 

Just curious as to the benchmark of performance level that you consider confident.  Can you give a number in kg. or something that you know is for sure low enough? 

[Dave Almeida]

A better question. Why do you think people are naturally capable of achieving greater numbers than those that already got busted for drugs?

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

and feel that China must have a new way to cheat the system that no one else in the world has or knows of.

I'm not sure what you mean here Steve as science has shown many ways to beat the testing. The Clear was only one of a billion possible variations for instance, gene doping (which China has been caught selling to athletes), etc, etc. And, I AM batting like 100% now having predicted Iran, Greece, Bulgaria, Russia, etc's busts. The same people that said they were just tougher than everyone else, better training, etc, etc have just moved on to the new flavor of the month and those Nations are now echoing my position about them for years- complaining that China is cheating. Its pretty ironic.

[steve zeigman]

It's not a question of the better question is... What is the answer to my question!

I thought I was being clear.

What is the benchmark, amount of lift, way of measuring, or any method by which you know a lifter is clean from steriods or cheating if you don't trust the tests and /or the people administering the tests ie WADA?

If I understand David's answer, you know they are a cheater if they lift more than the highest standard set by the people already tested positive. Humm??? But what about the records set by people who test negative, if they're higher than the former cheater they cheated? 

In other words, that means anyone lifting as much as the highest amount lifted by someone caught cheating is a cheater, whether they test negative or not. Humm?

So by this standard no 202 + C & J from any 69 kg lifter is possible! And since the Chinese lifter won with less than 202 if he tests negative he's clean.  So far China is clean!

Chris says since they're many ways to beat the tests all negative WADA testing is suspect. They could all be cheates including USA?  I guess the lifters that lost to Kendric are calling him a cheater too!


   

[Dave Almeida]

May I ask, what is the purpose of your question?

Here are some of my thoughts on doping in the Beijing Games:
Doping coaches are scientists paid to make sure you never fail a test. You are telling me top countries like China and Korea who never fail tests don't have those?

The Chinese have been busted administering drugs to weightlifters in their young sports schools. They had a girl snatch 2kg under the WR as a 13 or 14 year old in their Inner City Games a little over a year ago. Oh, she was a 48kg lifter. It is only naive to believe she is like that naturally.

Are you one of those delusional Americans that think we can compete with other countries right now without using drugs?

You are assuming that drugs effect all people in the exact same way and that everyone is the exact same physiologically by trying to set a standard by which to accuse someone of doping based solely on results. I'm sure there are B session lifters that have used some sort of performance enhancing drug.

Chris is right. The only reason we ever caught that version of the clear is because someone was pissed when they found out their competition was using it, got a hold of it and sent it to the anti-doping agency. So what happens when entire national teams have their own versions of these drugs in very strict communication countries like China or Russia? They never get busted. The anti-doping agencies admitted they would have most likely never been able to detect the clear without it being sent in.

Another way they beat the tests could be:
Peptides (HGH, IGF-1, Insulin) are undetectable in urine tests and don't stay in the system very long so as long as they come off relatively close to the competition they won't test positive even in the event of a blood test. These countries aren't stupid. They know how long the half lives are of the drugs and they proceed accordingly.


If you know what you are doing you can go an entire career without ever testing positive. It may be very expensive but it is possible.

As long as the prizes are big there will be doping. You are just being naive. Sports have been doped since the 50's and 60's (possibly before), why would anything change now that technology is better and victory means more?

Testing at the competition itself means very little nowadays. They just come off the drugs in time. If you get busted at a competition it is just because of stupidity not because of some great breakthrough in testing. OOC testing is where it gets tricky for athletes which is why in the USA they hire people like Victor Conte to take care of that. You don't think there are a lot of Victor Conte's in the world today? How many OOC tests do Chinese weightlifters partake in?

If you see a huge decline in positives at these Olympics it isn't because people stopped doping it is because all of the idiots (Bulgaria and Greece) got busted and everyone else beat the tests.


I don't mean to take anything away from the Chinese they are some of my favorite lifters to watch. Their success has to do with more than just the drugs they take.

[steve zeigman]

I just want to find out how you know someone is cheating or not?  What is the measure you need to use to know for sure? It seems like a simple question.

Your saying its anyone you don't like that is a cheater?  Or are you saying it's anyone who beats the lifter you want to have win who is the cheater?

If a negative test is meaningless and there is no other way to determine then it's just an emotional witch hunt!  Burn them baby!

So again I ask...looking for someone to answer me...what is the measure of whether a lifter is cheating or not cheating?  Is it testing?  You say NO! Is it the amount of weight they lift? Someone else says NO!

Well, if there isn't any detection method, measuring method, or way else to know, then the whole cheater thing is pointless. WADA is a waste of time and money. If a whole country is cheating when some get caught, then US must be viewed as world cheaters too because we've had lifters detected!  And the lifters in other countries must know that USA lifters are cheaters too, just the way we know they are cheaters. They think so!

[Dave Almeida]

It is the amount of weight they lifted. IMO you can't challenge WR's or compete for a medal internationally without the use of drugs. However, we can't set an actual deciding total for each individual weight class because it just isn't practical.

For the record, my favorite lifters (Ilya Ilin, Lu Yong, Liao Hui, Andrei Aramnau, Dmitry Klokov) are all lifters that I feel use drugs. So no, I don't hate lifters because they use, it is just how weightlifting is and has been for a long time.

Your last paragraph is basically spot on. I have a feeling tests will be down this Olympics but that won't be because testing has gotten better or lifters have stopped using.

Mark my words, when you actually start seeing the effects of gene doping in the next couple of decades the whole steroids controversy will pale in comparison and almost seem childish. The current problem with gene doping is that it is way too dangerous to apply to humans. That will certainly change though.

I heard a college track and field coach talking at the gym I train at and the concerns in track and field are identical to weightlifting (WRT drug use). The drug issues are not just in weightlifting as some people would like to believe. Usain Bolt - 9.69 100m dash easily!!!!???? Clean athletes just can't keep bashing records set by known dopers. Drugs do actually work or no one would use them.

[Jim Hooper]

I'll answer you Steve (for me at least):  (1) Testing by the currently WADA protocol, out of competition, several times per year, on a no-notice basis, completely satisfies me that an athlete is clean.  (2)  Testing is not "meaningless."  While it may be technically possible for the very richest athletes or programs to use a substance not yet detectable with the WADA protocol, those instances are rare and short-lived.   Any cheating with undetectable compounds is dwarfed by the cheating that goes on with good old tried and true compounds.   (3)  It would be ridiculous to infer cheating from a lifter's results.  A lifter can have poor results and still be cheating; a lifter can break world records and be cheating.  

Are the Chinese tested repeatedly, year round (i.e., out of competition), no-notice, -- and here comes the tricky part, so watch closely --  by (i) WADA, or (ii) by the Chinese Weightlifting Federation, the very same entity that one would suspect of programmatic, systematic doping in the first place?