Topic: "Clean" 200/245

[Dirk Wilcke]

Top athletes on drugs will always beat top athletes off drugs. Are you saying Steiner is that much of a better athlete than Chigishev that he can beat him without ever touching drugs? An example: Sprinter wins the gold medal with 9.70 in the 100, 2nd place is 9.71. Winner gets popped but 2nd place never gets busted and comes from a team that doesn't typically produce top sprinters. I'd argue there is no way he is clean. Some would argue he is absolutely clean even though his time would be otherworldly for a clean runner. It is the same thing in weightlifting in my eyes.

People like to look around and say wow there are so many genetic freaks out there. I disagree. There are so many people on drugs out there that would be very very good athletes even without the drugs that the naive get confused. Certainly there are some freaks in the world, but not enough as to where every sport seems to have endless numbers of them at the top levels. Maybe Steiner is a true freak. I kind of wish he is, it would be awesome. He seems like a very lovable character. Unfortunately, it is more likely in today's world that he is simply another athlete that uses steroids.

Chris I agree with your point about being suspicious of all powerlifters entering the sport.

There will be a real crossroads in sport as a whole within the next century as science continues to take over.

I don't know who is clean and who isn't. I never went past the national level in any sport, and that was as a kid and 15 years ago, so I don't have any inside knowledge on drugs in sports besides what I read in the news. I don't know how difficult/expensive it is to beat the testing system. I also know little about human potential with versus without drugs.

It wouldn't surprise me if 100% of the lifters in the Olympics had taken something illegal at some point in their careers. But I also think that it might be possible that some are clean and maybe have been clean all the time. And as long as it isn't pretty evident that the guy in question is on something simply by looking at him (e.g. strongmen) and isn't part of a system that essentially doesn't even attempt to combat drug use (China?), I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, even if his performance is impressive enough to maybe warrant some doubts. Reflection reveals that this is somewhat naive, but an setting an essentially arbitrary performance cut-off rate, above which the assumption is "not clean" does not appear to make more sense per se.

[John Way]

isnt it the case that modern doping creates softer drugs than the past, but with a greater ability to escape detection, ie. steroids that are easily picked up are more effective i.e. 1960s to 1980s, and that modern drugs technology allows for quicker biological elimination and transfer but less effectiveness?????

I recall a Monaco Grand Prix dinner, with best 100m sprinters of that time, the reporter asked how it is possible to run so fast, with a few drinks in their belly, they just looked at each other and giggled, the inference was palpable!!

[Paul LaDuke]

It seems general concensus is that no one has snatched 200kg or clean and jerked 245kg who has not juiced.  Seems no one thinks that anyone has ever had the strength to do it.  But what about someone like Paul Anderson with his absolutely incredible natural strength?  I have his biography which reports from credible eye witnesses that he squated 800lbs for 10 reps! What if he could have trained today with a great coach from early on?  My opinion is that someone with Paul's raw talent could be coached with today's methods to perform a 200/245 and do it clean.  I don't think that it has happened yet.

What do you think?

[Bruce Darley]

I will probably be massacured for saying it, but I think if they had the steroid olympics where anything goes and nothing was tested for no records would be broken, or very few by only tiny margins. If you have trained in the gyms and have the slightest clue it is obvious that all the really strong guys are on somthing more than vitamins.

[John Way]

PA was generally a slower type lifter, although some of his cleans were mighty fast, with his lock out being what it was, I doubt he ever , under any circumstances, exceeeded 165 (363) Sn & 210kg (462lbs) wioth modern interpretation of the technical rules

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

I believe I have an autographed picture of Paul Anderson clean and pressing more than 200kgs. Its in storage right now although I believe it is posted somewhere on WE and hopefully in Paul's HOF tribute if I did my "job" really well. Apparently, and my high school coach trained with him, Paul could press MORE than he could jerk. My coach claims he did a 227.5kg press but my coach isn't that good with kilos either and I find that hard to believe without photo evidence. My coach claims Terry Todd and Ben Greene were both witnesses to that press although I have never had the opportunity to confirm it in any way and again find that highly unlikely. I do believe Paul clean and pressed more than 210kgs however.

[Paul LaDuke]

John,

Valid points on Paul Anderson.  We was a slow lifter, much of that probably do to his immense girth and his training.  I believe he was self coached for most of his brief career although he did spend some time with the York Barbell Club.  I believe though that if he were born today and recognized at an earlier age (15 years old), he would not have the problems of being slow and I think his body composition would have been leaner.  He was something else.

[Tom Sherwood]

Shane has snatched 197.5 in a meet. I still think even with his late start had he not retired he would have been on the medal stand the past three world championships.