Topic: How American Lifters Would Fare in European Champs -- Not Too Bad

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

But what I think we need to do as country is stop so much worrying and complaining about other countries that are doping but to shift our primary focus to getting more involvement, promotion, and more recognition of the sport here in the US.  We can still keep up our stance against drug use but lets take more of our focus to getting it going here.

This is exactly the strategy we have pursued for the last 20 years. It isn't working. If you take any NFL team, force them to get off the drugs, and then make them compete against the rest of the league, they are going to get killed. Suddenly you will find athletes don't want to play for that team, coaches don't want to work for it, and losing becomes a tradition, expected. We will never have anything to offer our athletes and never pull in high numbers of talented lifters as long as all we can promise them in this sport is the opportunity to get cheated and then dismissed as irrelevant.

[Dave Almeida]

You are right, Chris.

So what is there to do then? Even though Greece just got busted I'll still use them as an example of how the sport could gain popularity because any number of countries could be in Greece's spot right now if the IWF had the balls to go after them.

Pyrros Dimas and Akakios Kakhiashvilis along with coach Christos Iakovou were the reasons that Greek weightlifting became popular. Pyrros and Kakhi, by winning multiple olympic gold medals for Greece, brought the sport to the publics attention. Iakovou then set up an environment similar to almost every other top country in weightlifting to develop lifters. Everything was possible because of Pyrros and Kakhiashvilis making the sport popular. The Greeks fell in love with these two athletes which eventually led to more funding and a better team.

Weightlifting in the USA will not be popular until we win medals and get one or two athletes in the spotlight consistently. How will this happen? Well someone will need to finally do what you were suggesting Chris and take the drugs while beating the tests. Drugs aren't going away, everyone knows this.

Why is USA weightlifting the only sport that's so anti drugs? Don't get me wrong, drugs are dangerous and if you ask any athlete in other olympic sports they will deny taking them. However, it is a known fact that American athletes in other olympic sports with just as stringent drug testing get away with using somehow. For example, sprinters understand if they want to medal in the hundred meters that they will need to take drugs. I spoke with a former D1 college sprinter and now sprinting coach about this. There is no way around it if you want to medal or even make it to the trials in a competitive country.

At first, the athletes stand on drug use in olympic weightlifting was somewhat of a phenomena to me. But then I realized that if we had money in the sport then people would roll the dice and take the drugs if they could make money lifting weights. I spend time with college athletes in other sports as I am a college athlete myself and almost all of them say if they could have the opportunity to play professional sports then they would take the drugs. Young Russian weightlifters talk about which drugs to use on their forums all the time. As Mr. Macklem pointed out, in europe weightlifters are pro athletes. All the clowns at goheavy can brag all they want about how morally superior american weightlifters are to other countries but the bottom line is, if people could make decent money from winning gold medals in the olympics in weightlifting then they would take the drugs.

 I could go on and on but I'll stop here for now.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

So what is there to do then?

There is plenty that could be done to fix drug testing but there is not the will.

Weightlifting in the USA will not be popular until we win medals and get one or two athletes in the spotlight consistently. How will this happen? Well someone will need to finally do what you were suggesting Chris and take the drugs while beating the tests. Drugs aren't going away, everyone knows this.

You can't do such a thing in the USA. Lawsuits would destroy the sport.

Why is USA weightlifting the only sport that's so anti drugs? Don't get me wrong, drugs are dangerous and if you ask any athlete in other olympic sports they will deny taking them. However, it is a known fact that American athletes in other olympic sports with just as stringent drug testing get away with using somehow.

Its just a matter of money. If you could win a bunch of money in the sport like say the NFL or even in track and field, then we would have people contaminating the American field with drug abuse. Consistently beating the testing system is expensive so its not happening here.

In short, there seems to be no solution in sight and I think its inevitable the sport will be kicked out of the Olympics and doomed to freakshow status like bodybuilding and powerlifting.

[Andy Dick]

In short, there seems to be no solution in sight...

This is what I have seen, when I think about it almost makes me want to just quit training because whats the point.  Don't cheat and others that are cheating will beat you all the time, all the while nothing seems to be done to fix the problem.  Take drugs and you may lift a lot and do well but there is always the chance of getting caught and the shame involved in that or the possible loss of medals.  Or even more important to me is the health issues or the effect it may have on my future kids.  All I can do is just wait for that act of God where the one freak lifter emerges who can lift a ton and is clean.

[Jack]

Are some of you saying the top weightlifting countries that passed the drug tests in say, this last  Euro comp, cheated but could circumvent the testing? And that this ability is the main reason why they would beat the alledgedly clean US lifters?

Sjaak



 

[Dirk Wilcke]

My question would be:

Is it believed that the international success of American athletes in disciplines such as T&F and wrestling (which probably also lend themselves well to use of illegal performance enhancers) is then simply due to the fact that the moral qualms (with respect to substance abuse) of American athletes in these disciplines are not as pronounced as those of American weightlifters? Or is there little to no testing in T&F or wrestling?

Not knowing anything about drug use in those fields, it would appear that the one major difference between, say, wrestling and weightlifting is the participation rate.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Is it believed that the international success of American athletes in disciplines such as T&F and wrestling (which probably also lend themselves well to use of illegal performance enhancers) is then simply due to the fact that the moral qualms (with respect to substance abuse) of American athletes in these disciplines are not as pronounced as those of American weightlifters? Or is there little to no testing in T&F or wrestling?

The lifters that choose to participate in the American system are 99% or so against the use of doping. If there was a lot of money in weightlifting in the USA, this would change very quickly and you would have people who are willing to do whatever it takes to win just as you do in almost every aspect of life when money is involved. Track and field has a lot of money for winning. I don't know much about the state of the drug war in wrestling.

I don't want to run around in circles arguing this issue that nothing can change anyway so I am going to withdraw from this discussion probably.

Happy Saturday!

[Andy Dick]

I agree with chris that if fame and fortune are involved more are likely to take the quick route to take drugs.  As far as drugs go in wrestling I have no idea on its use.  I only competed at D3 so it wasn't that big, I was never confronted or asked to use them.  But I do know many of my classmates when asked the hypothetical on if they could use and not get caught would they and most said yes.  I think one different between wrestling and weightlifting though is weightlifting is more dependet on overall strength (both require technique).  Wrestling although uses strength the wrestler has to rely on endurance, and strategy during the match as well as to adjust to the wrestler they are facing.  So getting stronger will only help you so much in wrestling if you have poor technique, speed, adaptability, or endurance.  However, everything being equal the stronger faster wrestler has a greater chance of coming out on top so I would say it is hard to say.

My question on the drug issue is this:  during my sport law class in grad school a lawyer came in and started a debate.  It was pretty much the premise that under the constant guidance of a doctor steroids can be safely taken (just the extreme effects would not occur as if they were taken in some of the same ways today, but in more slighter slower increases due to slower doses would help get someone to a higher level) should they be legalized, to possibly make thier use safer and since some are taking them.  That aside what is to keep a lifter who decides to weightlift start taking these steroids under the supervision of a doctor but never compete, get themselves to a high total, then once they achieve that to go off the steroids and start to compete clean from that point on just adhereing to really slow gains on top of thier already tremendous strength?