Topic: strength limits vs olympic lifting abilities

[Paul LaDuke]

Jim,

Great stuff!  It is very interesting to study the ratios of the elite lifters vs. the USAW membership average.  The difference of 4-7% in the ratio from the average lifter to the world class lifter is a huge difference.  The question then becomes why the difference.  I would think the speed of the 3rd pull (pull under) would be the differentiation.  The average member of the USAW will not have that world class speed under the bar.  It seems more and more to me that the coach's focus needs to be on the pull under to produce high level athletes. 

What do you think?  My theory may be off base and would like to hear other thoughts.

[Andy Dick]

My front squat is 10kg less than my back squat.  Does that mean I have a weak back squat or a really strong front squat?

[Paul LaDuke]

Yes it does.

Actually, it probably means you have a strong front squat which is the way an Oly lifter wants it.  I also means you probably have great ankle flexibility and you have the ability to stay very upright in the bottom position of the front squat making you much more effecient than the average Joe.  I would base my ratio from the front squat number for you.

How do your ratios stack up with what is above?  Do they align more accurately with your front squat or your back squat?

[Andy Dick]

My ratios are lower.  I have only been seriously training for 2 yearsish.  My cleans are a lot closer because I have been doing those longer because of sports.  But snatches I have only done for like 2 years.


But the breakdown is:
C&J 69.1% of BS
C&J 74.2% of FS
S68.6% of C&J

(based off my last 1RM PRs from a few months ago)

C&J is probably higher now because of Jerk weakness which I have gotten better at

[MichaelGrabowski]

Would you say that the squats correlate that much with one's ability to snatch or clean?

I am about 1,93m my legs are 93cm long ... so my angles for weightlifting are really bad.

In the back squat i have to lean a lot forward, my chest is almost touching my knees in a full backsquat. In the frontsquat, you can imagine, it is a very, very long way from top to bottom ...

Although my frontsquat is at about 140kg and my backsquat at about 130kg I can easily clean & jerk 135kg (but I think that there is really no accurate method to get a 1RM, but about that later)

So you can say, I have a really bad squat or a really good clean ;)

As mentioned in another thread the ability to clean and snatch has as lot to do with your:

1. speed to get under the bar (the ability to squat as fast, as possible) and
2. (in my opinion) to pull the bar as high, as possible ...

To get a better clean or snatch one has 2 possibilities:

-> get under the bar as fast as possible:

You can do that by varying two factors: distance or time

1. Varying the distance: People with shorter legs (but the same speed and mobility) will get faster under the bar, as people would do with long legs ... the distance for an athlete with 80cm legs is shorter than the distance for a lifter with 90cm legs from fully extended legs to the full-squat possition (if both have the same speed and flexibility)... makes sence ;)

-> distance is a factor you can't really control, becuase you can't control the length of your legs.

2. Varying the time: It sounds absurd, but if you can "sit" faster than I can, you will reach the bottom position faster than me (it is assumed that you and me have legs of equal length) and get a better clean, because you don't have to clean it that high
-> you don't have to have that much pull-power-speed and bar-height!

Now let's say you have reached your max. "sitting-speed" and you can't vary your distance (because of your legs)...

What is another possibility to get this PR-clean or -snatch?

"If you can't reach the barbel, the barbel has to reach you" (is sounds better in german ;) )

What does that mean? As I mentioned before, one must try to pull the bar as high as possible ...

Does the squat really help me to reach that level? Does it help me to pull as fast and as high as possible?

I don't really think so ...

Don't get me wrong, the squat is really helpfull to stand up with the weight (although I think that the frontsquat after a clean is a more pliometric movement, than the normal frontsquat because of the full stretch of the hamstrings during the pull -> one can generate more power than in a normal squat)

But what is the best exercise to pull as fast as possible and to pull as high as possible?

I would suggest, that it is a movement that imitates the first movement in the clean and the snatch. That imitates the clean-pull and the snatch-pull + the "upright-row" of the arms before you sink under the bar ...

I think one should concentrate more on the strength of the hams and the traps + more on the speed of the contraction of the hams and the traps ...

Excercises that at one day train those two muscles with max. weight and then train those two muscles with low weight but max. velocity on another day are far more effective than the usual squat and can be used as a prediction for the classic clean & snatch ...

I don't have data that proves my thought but for me it makes sense.

To get the max. out of your clean or snatch you must train the 2 main muscles (traps+hamstrings) with max. power and max. velocity (to get max. contractions at max. velocity) ... and I don't think that squats are a good excercise for that purpose and as a result no real comparison to one's max. C&J or snatch ...

What do you think?

[Shaun Le Conte]

To get the max. out of your clean or snatch you must train the 2 main muscles (traps+hamstrings) with max. power and max. velocity (to get max. contractions at max. velocity) ... and I don't think that squats are a good excercise for that purpose and as a result no real comparison to one's max. C&J or snatch ...

What do you think?

Very interesting post Michael, what I question is whether the traps are in fact one of the two main muscle groups in lifting. I know guys who focus on a big, big shrug... shrug harder! So for them obviously it's a very important bit of muscle.

 I still believe that the quads are king, followed by hamstrings. It may depend on a person's lifting style, which in turn depends on their muscular strengths, which helps determine a lifter's style... which... I am dizzy.

[MichaelGrabowski]

My problem with the focus on "only-quad" is, that you must first pull the weight to (let's say) knee-height ...

Seeing the Tommy Kono videos and other instructional videos, I can see, that to best lifters in the world pull the most part with nearly straight legs to avoid shin-knee-bar-contact (until the bar-pelvis-contact) ... doing that (doing nearly streight-leg-deadlifts) requires a lot of hamstring power + contraction-speed (as you know the Mm. biceps femoris + semitendonosus + semimembranosus have insertiones at the pelvis + lower-legs, the so called pelvitrochanteric muscles) ...

They do flex the knee and are very powerful hip-extensors (think of sitting first and than standing straight ... the hips extends)

Reading some studies about activation of muscles during the sprint (or the max. extension of the hip) the main muscle-groups activated are the Mm. gluteii + and the 3 muscles mentioned above folloved by the muscles of the back etc.

My point is (and this is just an opinion, not written in stone):

If you want to squat under the bar, you must bring that bar to a certain height ... with the power of the hams and the traps ...

The traps are very important for the speed and the height during the second phase of the motion before the squat-under-position (the distance between half-femur and the fixed position on the clavicula or the overhead-squat)

One can see that very good when you watch some Pyrros Dimas videos ... after a strong and powerful pull (not that fast ... Zatsiorsky says: you can pull strong or you can pull fast ... don't try to use max. velocity in your weakest postion -> the forward lean during the pull) comes the fast and powerful shrug ...

As I mentioned before: I don't want to make it into a squat or deadlift argument ...

I just want to say that it can be very, very useful to check the "backside" where you can find the 2 most powerful muscles-groups in your body.

Work on your hamstring power and speed and work on your trap power and speed and your overall power and speed will grow.

Test your max. deadlift and your max. upright-row (clean- or snatch-grip), train it and the rest will follow ...

Don't make the "bodybuilder-mistake" and just train the muscles you can see ...

Check out other sports ... for example sprinters, check the propotiones of their legs ... what do you see?

Most of them have bigger Mm. gluteii and hamstrings, than quads ... because the "back" makes you fast ...