Topic: strength limits vs olympic lifting abilities

[Stephen Georgiou]

Hi there. This may be a naive question, and probably pointless....but i will ask your opinions anyway.

I am 28 years old, weigh about 85kg (i am reasonably lean), and am about 5' 10". Ive been lifting weights for about 10 years now in total. The first few years were aesthetic based (various versions of bodybuilding methodologies), the next few years were more strength orientated, and most recently, the last 2 years (approximately) have been spent almost exclusively to try and improve my performance in the Olympic lifts. I have never had any 'coaching' and all I have learnt has been exclusively off sites such as this one. I have grown to love the lifts, but boy do I have a long way to go to perform as I would like! Just to clarify, I have no intention of ever competing (not with my crappy lifts anyway :))...its all for personal satisfaction.

My best successful lifts:

52.5kg snatch (decent quality lift)
70kg C&J (jerk part was easy. Clean was ugly with lots of arm bend)
80kg rack jerk

70kg OHS (1rm)
100kg front squat (1rm)
My back squat PR is 140kg, but that was a few years ago, using a powerlifting 'style'. I havent tested for a new back squat PR using olympic 'style', but I regularly rep 100kg without much bother.

Ok so here is my naive question...

I dream of being able to snatch my body weight, and C&Jing 100kg. What kind of squat strength would i need to have to facilitate these kinds of lifts? I know that there is probably no real answer, and my lifting form/efficiency is probably the greatest limiting factor, but I am after some kind of guide.

I am grateful for any advice/comments anyone may have.

ps...I would post videos of my form, but at the moment I dont have the capabilities to do so.

[Craig Vandeweghe]

Here is my %'s

C&J 80.9% of back squat
Snatch 83.6% of C&J
Front Squat 83.8% of back squat
Power Snatch 82.6% of Snatch
Power Clean 90.9% of Clean

When I did these numbers I was good technically for my strength. I could clean 2.5kg less then my front squat.
A good base number is what you can front squat for 3 you should be able to clean and jerk. Snatch is from 78% to 83% based on good technique. 

Hope this helps
Craig

[Matt Erdman]

I am about the same age, height, and weight as you. When I first hit an 85 snatch, my front squat was about 120, and back was about 140. I say "about" because I lift in pounds and I didn't actually max before that competition.

It seems like your pull mechanics may be bad. An 80kg jerk is good for a 100kg front squat. Your clean should be up there and the snatch should be around 65. If you can get videos, that would be great.

Actually my avatar is my first 85kg snatch. 

[Paul LaDuke]

Percentages are great to use, but they are only a guide.  While I use them quite frequently, I don't get too wrapped up in what they mean.  First off some rules about the squat (front and back) numbers that are used when calculating percentages.  The feet position must replicate the catch stance for the snatch and the clean.  The depth of the squats must be as deep as is physically posible for the athlete to squat and also mimic the depths of the clean and snatch.  The trunk angles in the squats must be the same as the classic lifts.  And last, the bar should be held high on the neck for the back squat and above the clavicles for the front squat.  Basically, the squat form should look indentical to the snatch and clean body positions.

Front squat to back squat should be at least 85% or higher.  This is a contraversial ratio and probably the one to pay the least attention to.

The clean and jerk to back squat ratio should be about 78%.  This ratio can be thrown off by a poor front squat to back squat ratio. So it may be more accurate to compare the clean to front squat ratio.  This ratio should be at least 90%.

The snatch to clean and jerk ratio is also about 78%.  (This is the least contraversial ratio.)


So doing some quick math, if you want to snatch 85kgs, your clean and jerk should be around 110kgs and your front squat should be a minimum of 121kgs.  This would mean your minimum back squat for an 85kg snatch would be 140kgs or so.  But again, I must reiterate, these ratios are only a guide and should only be used as a rough guide.   

I arrived at the 78% snatch/clean ratio for the USAW 2008 Results report available to members on the website.  I downloaded all of the rankings from last year as posted on the USAW website.  These results are conviently posted in MS Excel.  It was easy then to average the ratio of the snatch to the clean and jerk for each weight class.  First, I went through and deleted all the results reported from bombs (no need for 0's to throw off the calculation).  I also deleted all the rankings from any one under 18 years old.  I then averaged the snatch and the clean and jerk columns and then divided the snatch by the clean and got a ratio of 78% +/- 1% for a couple of classes.  This was pretty easy because of it already being in a spread sheet and it was very interesting to me.  This is why I say that ratio is the least contraversial.  I believe this was the average ratio for about 2,000 weightlifters from competitions in the US during 2007.  Pretty sound ratio if you ask me.

Good luck lifting and post some video when you can get some done!

[Ryan Marciniszyn]

I've snatched 90 and clean and jerked 110 with a 125 kg back squat. So the percentages aren't always perfect..

[Jim Hooper]

Hey Paul I did the same thing for the 2007 Worlds, just to see how the uber-good technicians stack up against the 78% (which I agree is a real close estimate for the vast majority of lifters with good technique).  The world class lifters were more like 81-83% -- they seem to snatch a little better relative to the CJ than the herd.  I thought it would be the case that the lighter classes had the bigger snatch ratios, and in the bigger classes the jerk would dominate, but not so -- the big boys snatch like fiends too.  And as you drop down the placings, the Snatch ratio pretty consistently falls -- the podium quality guys seem to snatch better -- get more thirds on the board -- than the lower-finishing lifters across all classes.  Check it out (attached).  Note Rybakou's 187 WR at 85 -- 90%+ of his CJ.  With a strong enough microscope, you could probably that he has little strands of DNA that actually spell the word "S-N-A-T-C-H."

I usually think of 134% +/- 5% for the back squat to clean ratio and the FS at about 120% more or less, which seems close for lifters who've been at it a while and have decent technique.   

Of course guys with some quicks like Ryan can jump under bigger scarier stuff and beat the percentages by a mile.  Soviet "Masters of Sport" were measured to have lower BS/CJ ratios than normal -- BS only about 123% of their CJ, not because their squats were "weaker" but because with their speed and skill they could pull under bigger stuff than the Class II-IV level lifters.

[Jim Hooper]

Sorry -- here's the data from 2007 Worlds if interested. 

[Stephen Georgiou]

thank you all for your great replies. I was after a very approximate guide line (I am fully aware that there are no exact figures). Exactly what I was after...Thanks!