Topic: knee on snatch

[Andy Dick]

is it normal for your knees to be this far in front of your toes in the snatch?

[Shaun Le Conte]

Yeah - that's just what happens in our sport, especially the deeper you squat - knees are in front of the toes. Look at Khaki doing his 188 kg world record. or Vanev (not so deep). If you take a wider stance, and point the knees (and feet) out to the sides more, then the knees won't be so far in front.

[Andy Dick]

alright cool, just wanted to make sure I wasnt doing something horribly wrong.  I was always taught that when you squat your knees should be behind your toes.  So, on the catch from the clean since it is a full front squat the knees will be forward a little to?  Does this happen for all types of squats when it is a full squat?

[Shaun Le Conte]

I don't know where this knees and toes thing even comes from Andy, maybe somebody can answer more thoroughly. Can you imagine what snatches or cleans would look like if your knees could never be forward of your toes? Like a squat in powerlifting but somehow holding a weight overhead, or on the chest. How would that affect your body?

Is that you in the photo? Looks like you're in good shape.

[Andy Dick]

The knee and toe thing was somthing taught to me in all my schooling in strength and conditioning.  Back squat it is easier to sit it back and keep them back more until I get into a full squat.  Front squat I have no idea what my knees did I could feel they went forward some but wasnt sure how much.  I think on thing I am battling in my thinking is too many conflicting philosophies that are bouncing around in my head from different strength coaches in my time till now.  Actual coaches, internship supervisors, professors, and colleagues ect.

yeah, that is from my maxes this week.  I am currently working to get the video on here for some form pointers.  On my clean and jerks (form wise I see some issues I need to correct but I want to see what you all say).  I was very pleased with my snatch performance, not so much with my clean and jerks though (just a .2kg pr :P ... but its improvement especially from coming off about a month of cleans after a month break (hip issue)).  I got to get my strength up in the jerk because that is what seems to be holding me back in that exercise.  That was from one of my warm-up attempts where I actually went low (most of my maxes were power snatches since I have this stupid hip injury my mind keeps holding me back from dropping low when I go heavy).  It will be easier to explain more once I get the vids posted.

[Matt Rupiper]

I hear ya Andy...the toes over the knees issue...being in PT school and a strength coach i hear it all the time..knees over toes=bad bad.  Being that we're olympic lifters knees over the toes=okay..Barring no knee abnormalities and proper tracking of the patella over the femur, you're probably okay but with a more acute angle at the knee joint the patellofemoral joint reaction forces increases.  If there isn't proper tracking of the patella on the femur ,the compressive forces are directed onto a smaller surface area leading to wear and tear.  If there is proper tracking ,the forces are distributed over a larger surface area meaning the compressive forces are less.

[Paul LaDuke]

I think the knees over the toes comes from over-zealous PTs who saw a lot of patients with patella-femoral pain.  You can control their pain by limiting the knees over the toes.  So they felt that limiting all squating and lunges so that the knees do not go over the toes became the norm.  But it is not based on any research on healthy subjects.  It is bogus.  For further reading on the subject, look for Vern Gambetta's blog on the subject.  In teaching the squat, I let the athlete's knee go were it wants to except towards the mid-line of the body.  Every body has different limb lengths and ratios and flexiblitiy differences that will all effect the position of the ankles, knees and hips during the squat.  I focus on the position of the back (tight arch, upright trunk) and let the legs go were they need to maintain that correct position.

Interesting topic.

[Andy Dick]

I agree with the knees moving together I look out for that as well and it is easy to fix, I also concentrate on back and depth (this is what many struggle with second to the knee issue).  Depth is also relatively easy to fix but the knee one is extrememly difficult to get lifters to understand (let alone do) to sit back far enough to get keep the knees even with the toes.

I think where I am at with my thinking right now, after thinking on this topic some, is that for standard population and athletes that back squat to parallel only I will stress the knee even with the toes.  Weightlifters and those that full squat I think I may not worry about so much.  I was looking at some pictures of clean catches and the knees appeared forward as well which interested me...I have never really paid attention to my front squats as far as knees.  I always worried about keeping my elbows up and back with the slight arch.