Topic: What's your opinion on relation between squats & lifts?

[Paul LaDuke]

My post above was intended to be the beginning of a new thread, but some moderator's sharp mind remembered this older thread that I didn't bother to look for.  Thanks to whoever linked the 2 threads into 1.

I have another question (seems the first one is pretty well answered).  Is there a ratio or range of your clean and jerk to your snatch?  For example: you can c & j 200kg, what should you snatch?

I know a lot of this is dependent on form, but it may be a valuable tool to knowing what your weakest lift is.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Paul,

This is extremely interesting to me. I "linked" or merged your post, which you intended to be a new thread, to this older thread discussing this same subject.

I could have simply responded to you with a link to this older thread on the same subject or just posted a comment suggesting you scan backward through general. But, I decided on the merge. I would appreciate feedback on that decision.

Now, whats really interesting is that there is already a thread on the ratio between the snatch and clean and jerk in the general forum and below is a link.

Ratio Between Snatch & CJ

[Mark Cannella]

My take on this is the synergy between the lifters technique and their absolute F and B Squat done correctly.....

The energy of the bar and the displacement of the bar is a result of good technique with no major muscle imbalances.  

Basically , the better technique, the more they lift, despite the absolute squat.

If one gets stronger with good technique,,,good things will happen....not sure where the point of diminshing returns happens.

How many of us seen lifters clang in a big clean and not be able to stand up?? No matter how strong they are......

Leg strength helps and I like to think that F.Squats are a better indicator of overall ability to make lifts.....no scientific basis though...just observation.

[Rhys Lucero]

Assuming that the lifter is as technically sound as the average lifter at USAW Nationals in a non-olympic year...
 
The minimum front squat to c&j 47.5kgs is...45kgs
 
The minimum front squat to c&j 92.5kgs is...100kgs
 
The minimum front squat to c&j 137.5kgs is...155kgs
 
The minimum front squat to c&j 182.5kgs is...210kgs
 
The minimum front squat to c&j 227.5kgs is...267kgs
 
The minimum front squat to c&j 272.5kgs is...320kgs
 
Heavy squats contribute to the ability to pull weight from the floor, but that is probably not their biggest contribution.  The most important benefit of heavy squats is the strength and conditioning necessary to complete the eccentric phase of the rack and the concentric phase of the squat without becoming too tired to complete a jerk.

[Bruce Topol]

Chris and Rhys,
This is a topic I have been interested in for some time... I await your research on this.  Let me ask about deviations from the 75% to 85% C&J to Squat ratio.  If the lifter is squatting more than this ratio I would think this would mean poor technique, poor pulling (back, ?hip strength) and/or poor shoulder/arm strength.  Am I correct or are there other diagnoses?

Thanks,
Bruce

[Rhys Lucero]

It is hard to say what it could mean if someone were far outside the normal range.  The first questions that would come to my mind would be...
 
Is the lifter training the lifts concurrently?  Does the lifter have much more experience in one type of lift?  Is the lifter training the lifts as hard as (s)he can?  Are there flexibility issues?  Does the lifter squat through the same range of motion as their clean?  Is the jerk the limiting factor?  
 
On a side note - In my experience, it is possible to train the squats and pulls much harder than the classic lifts because the body is subject to less impact forces.  So to train as hard as you can, the squat requires much more work (perseverance and volume) than the clean and jerk.  
 
But, this might be out of my league.  You may want to read the bulgarian thread or hear from more experienced coaches and athletes than me.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

There could be many factors that would make someone more or less efficient in transferring squat strength to the snatch and clean and jerk. But, the value of understanding the relationship lies not in identifying the cause of such variation but as an indicator of a lifter's need areas. For instance, if one is extremely inefficient in the transfer, then it is probably not wise to focus one's training on squats, and if one is extremely efficient, one should be squatting very hard. Thus, understanding the relationship helps identify where a lifter's strengths and weaknesses are concentrated and may help focus training on areas most susceptible to improvement. It could also be useful in determining a lifter's ideal weight class.

The question was asked what minimum squats were needed in order to clean and jerk a given weight. This can not be answered. Rhys just tossed out some numbers that were less than the averages we found, for fun and to stimulate discussion. Our study found the average relationship between front and back barbell squats and the snatch and clean and jerk for national-level competitors. We can not rule out someone deviating from the average, to any extent. All we can say is that understanding the nature of the relationship and any deviation from the average could be a useful tool for training.

It is true that lifters get diminishing returns from squatting translated in the snatch and clean and jerk, but this is true of all training. It is also true that the correlations between front and back squats and the snatch and clean and jerk are all very, very high, so basically, if one front and/or back squats more weight, then one will snatch and/or clean and jerk more weight- assuming all other factors remain equal.

[Eamonn Flanagan]

Just to add to the original query... is there normative data out there to give a guideline at what certain squat percentages (front squat, back squat OH squat) you should be at in relation to your lifts (SN + CJ).

For example if you we take your clean as 100% where should one's front squat be. 115%, 120%?

Such data would be useful as it would aid in prioritising the training cycle. For example I have, in tha past had my front squat at 130-140kg while my clean was at 100kg. Such a differential definately suggests, cutting back on the strength work and focusing more on technical clean work. Anybody have references regarding this or any thoughts or comments?