Author Topic: What's your opinion on relation between squats & lifts? (Read 3253 times)

Jim Storch · « **on:** Apr 16, 2005, 08:14 PM »

What is the minimum squat a lifter must be capable of to be able to c&j a given weight?

The minimum squat to c&j 47.5kgs is...

The minimum squat to c&j 92.5kgs is...

The minimum squat to c&j 137.5kgs is...

The minimum squat to c&j 182.5kgs is...

The minimum squat to c&j 227.5kgs is...

The minimum squat to c&j 272.5kgs is...

Chris Ⓐ LeRoux · « **Reply #1 on:** Apr 17, 2005, 06:32 AM »

Bud Charniga reports, in the referenced article listed below, that elite weightlifters could back squat approximately (M Â± SD) 127% Â± 5.2% of their best clean and jerk.

CHARNIGA, A. The relative value of the back squat in the training of weightlifters. 2000. Sportivny Press:
http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/sportivny/library/farticles007.html

In my opinion, this is pretty accurate.

Neil Wasserman · « **Reply #2 on:** Apr 17, 2005, 06:18 PM »

I don't think that there is any hard and fast rule to apply to this. A lot of a lifters ability to recover with a clean depends on the lifters clean technique. For example; Rick Holbrook could stand up with anything that he could pull in, but when he made a Jr WR C&J of 390 lbs as an 82.5, his best front squat was 400x3. Pisarenko was also known for his ability to clean very near to his best front squat.
The point that I'm trying to make is that an explosive lifter may be able to marshall more muscle fibers for recovery than a less explosive athlete and therefore may not be as reliant on brute strength.

Chris Ⓐ LeRoux · « **Reply #3 on:** Apr 18, 2005, 10:44 AM »

I both agree and disagree with Neil, in part. I do agree that there is an extremely large variation in the upper end of the range. In other words, I believe there is probably ALMOST no end to how inefficient a lifter could be in transferring squat strength to the lifts. On the other hand, I bet there is NO one out there that can full, weightlifting style, squat 300kg that can't power clean and jerk 60kg with ten minutes of instruction on the rules.

However, I do believe there is a hard and fast rule governing the lower end, or just how efficient a lifter can get in transferring squat strength to the lifts. For an extreme example, I would say that NO lifter that can barely front squat 60kg is going to clean and jerk 260kg.

Where is the line drawn? I believe our (Rhys, me, and Dr. Fry) hopefully soon (few months-year?) to be published study demonstrates this fairly clearly. No one in the study, or plugged into our formula after the fact, deviated by as much as one standard deviation, despite many of the subjects being TOTALLY convinced that THEY wouldn't fit into the formula (for varying reasons). Everyone we have ever plugged in has fit the line.

Steve Gough · « **Reply #4 on:** Apr 19, 2005, 11:41 AM »

I would like to jump in here and relate a couple of experiences...

Jeff Michaels at the 1983 Nat'ls in Seekonk, C&Jed 222.5 ks and pulled in 228 kgs (couldn't quite stand up with it) in the old 110kg class. Fast forward to 1995 when I began working with Jeff, he stated that at the time (seekonk) his best front squat was 212.5 kgs... quite a spread, wouldn't you say. I believe his best BS then was approx 250 X 2.

When Jeff began working with me in late summer of '95 his leg strength was very suspect... eventually (by late winter) Jeff managed a 210 front and a 250 back. As you can see he was quite a bit older by then. During one training session at that time Jeff actually clean and jerked (each rep) 190 for a triple. Quite amazing to say the least.

Conversely, Dan Lang just before that time C&Jed 177.5 off of a lifetime best BS of 215 (though at the time of this story he was only handling 207.5) I was convinced that if we dramatically increased his leg strength, great lifts would follow. So, I proposed something quite dramatic and Dan agreed. We really concentrated on back squats, three days a week starting at a level that he could handle for 3 sets of 3 (somewhere around 200 kgs) with about 2 1/2 or 5 kg jumps in between sets(sorry, memory does not serve me completely well right now). We were bound and determined to back squat 272.5 as an arbitrary goal. I had no idea how long this would take. It did not take long... We leap-frogged, every other day adding 2 1'2 or 5 kgs to our 3x3 mix , with the acceleration in progress being quite frankly amazing. Within approx one month give or take we reached 250x3. At that point we said, "#@$% it" and went for a 272.5 kg BS ultimate lifetime pr... It was a success. Simultaneously, without any front squatting, Dan was able to fs 225 kgs for another "big time leap forward."

The whole reason for me recounting this story is... when we went back to normal training of the lifts there was no appreciable improvement on our two lifts. For me my lesson out of this whole affair was that our three main incredients, snatch, c&j and squatting (whether front or back) must be brought up together. Jeff's arrival at my training center came shortly thereafter and as a result I did not use Dan's experience on Jeff. By the way, in Jeff's first workout with me he C&Jed 152.5, but could not stand up with 157.5. That same workout he could not bs 140 kgs at the end of the session. Boy, we had our work cut out for us.

Paul LaDuke · « **Reply #5 on:** Jan 13, 2006, 10:32 AM »

Does anyone have/use a formula or ratio to compare clean max to parallel back squat max? I am most interested in the ratios of the elite weightlifters.

In testing the HS football team last week, I compiled ratios and found a very wide range. Most of this is due to form issues in younger athletes. Many of my experience cleaners have a ratio close to 75% with a few approaching 80%. None of them have yet mastered the ability to squat clean, but I am really emphasizing the form this year as compared to years past.

My initial thoughs are that the ratio should be around 85% in the accomplished weightlifter. What are your experiences.

GabrielNagy · « **Reply #6 on:** Jan 14, 2006, 08:03 AM »

Very interesting...my ratio is very low - 70% (but Im a beginner - WL only some months and SQ about 3yrs) :wink:
But according what I saw in Ironmind tape Botev - Squatted 320kg and CJ 230kg (maybe he was able to do 240kg)..it comes lower ratio than 85%...I think thats very individual.

And my question is how much could squat Reza?
2 reps for 280kg front SQ is clear :shock:
1 rep max FSQ ?
1 rep max BSQ?

Matt Foreman · « **Reply #7 on:** Jan 14, 2006, 12:42 PM »

Good thread.

I have a question for Steve. Steve (if you read this post), do you remember when Dan Lang squatted 272.5? The reason I ask is because the last meet I saw Dan lift in was the 1996 Seniors. I remember it well because I was lifting in his weight class and I've watched the tape several times. Dan C&Jd 177.5 on his opener after a fairly challenging recovery in the clean. He went to 182.5 on his second and had to really fight like hell, screaming and rounding the back, to stand up with it before missing the jerk, and then I don't think he stood up with the 3rd. Was this around the same time he had a 272.5 BS? If so, something's not right. A few years later, when I was cleaning 185 pretty easily, my best back squat was only about 245. Any thoughts? Was he squatting low enough?