Topic: Squatting/Box Squatting/Stance

[Andy Dick]

Ok here is my question, I have heard some stuff about playing around with box squatting to help improve your squat.  Obviously, this improvement in your strength (via more strength in the hips and glutes) would carry over to squatting much more which would have the potential to carrying over to your olympic lifting; in theory atleast. 

However, I have heard this is done with a wider stance and also that a wide stance is recommended to squat more weight once you get the feel for it because of the strength gained in the hips and glutes(ie westside barbell guys).  I realize that many of these people lift in squat suits so going as wide as them is impossible. 

My question is does this have any carry over into your squat catch during the clean and snatch?  Because you will have to pull your feet in more to get lower, that looking at it specificity wise it is not specific to the squat up from the lifts.  Obviously more strength would be advantageous but if you are not squatting into the same range of motion as the catch for the olympic lifts would it defeat the purpose?  Or would it be advangateous to find maybe a middle ground between super wide and the olympic lifts; to get a huge squat strength base that you could bring the feet in for the olympic lifts and you would be cleaning or snatching less weight than your squat max, that the squat up would be easy since it would equate to a much lower percentage of your squat max.

I am stuck thinking of Paul Anderson where his squat strength was enormous especially compared to his clean and jerk and snatch numbers and am stuck wondering if there is some merit to this type of squatting and box squatting in a program.  Obviously, it would not be an every day thing but maybe once a week or something.

Let me know what you think

Andy

[Shaun Le Conte]

I have zero experience with box squats but I see you haven't had any responses so I will offer up a response

At a low level of training a wide variety of exercises are going to have some positive effect on the lifter's results, including these squats
Still some are more beneficial than others

Most of us only have so much time and energy, that we can't afford to do exercises that have little relationship to the events we want to improve upon (snatch, clean & jerk)

I think these wide stance box squats are pretty far removed from the technique involved in weightlifting and aren't a good use of training time
Spend more time doing squat cleans, focusing on speed and being spring-like
Do some lunges or stepups if you want, it saves load on your spine

Good luck

[Andy Dick]

Yeah, I know what you are saying, because obviously you want to get as specific to the actual exercise as you can.  But box squatting aside, I would only look at this as a way to strengthen the gluteals and hips and to take stress of the quads to save the legs for the olympics or to not tax them a ton further since any extra squatting would come after the olympic lifts.

I wonder more about with squats slightly varying the squats.  With like the principle about "spreading the floor" with your feet in the squat (or squat up) and the slightly wider than shoulder width stance while squatting.  Obviously this would not be done 100% of the time but to vary up the workouts or throw in once a week to strengthen the hips and get the extra hip involvement in squatting in order to squat more and see if it has a positive effect on the olympic lifts.

I am mainly seeing if someone has exprience with this variation in squats.  Like someone said I tried squatting with a wider stance and it had 0 carry over to my olmpic lifts or what.  What got me thinking a little about it to was when I snatch I do jump my feet apart a little in order to get low in the catch which I do not see to do a much when I clean.  Partially with the snatch I attribute probably to hip flexibility.  I like to try to think outside the box at times and see if there may be some merit to things I havent thought about before.  Mainly with the aspect of it being if using a different method in the squat, as stated in the second portion of this post, would this cause more hip involvement in the lift thus having a positive effect on squat strength since more muscles are being utilitzed to squat.  Thus more strength carrying over into the olympic lifts.

I am also debating playing with it a little in my programs also, I am unable to really do the olympic lifts right now because of a hip issue and havent squatted or done any of the oly lifts for about of a month now.  It has been an issue going on for about 9 months now and I decided to get it looked at and try to let it heal but it is taking so long and really aggrivating me since I cant do these lifts.  So obviously working back into squats with low weights would be a good time to start playing with this a little and seeing if it makes a difference.  Since I feel I will be able to squat before I will be able to do full cleans or snatches again.

[Paul LaDuke]

Andy,

Never stop questioning.  It is the mark of a good strength coach.

I think your trail of thinking is a good one and you are looking to put some variety into your squat routines.  Nothing wrong with that.  You always should put variety in your training for general health purposes.  It would be a good idea to train a variety of squats on your athletes also.  I use the box squat a lot with my younger athletes because it forces consistency of depth and I can control the depth of the squat. 

But your question is should an olympic weightlifter box squat.  My answer would mirror what Shawn wrote.  It is probably not a good investment in time.  You would get much more out of the regular old squat or pulls.  I may use them with novice lifters who have little experience squating, again to ensure uniform depth on all squat reps.  Once an athlete masters the squat and has good solid technique, I just don't see the value of the box sqaut. 

The great Louie Simmons loves them and is a huge proponent of the box squat.  Check out his website for tons of great information from his mind.  Not to many people think about the iron game more than Louie.  www.westsidebarbell.com

Personally, Louie stuff is a great reference and he will make you think but you also have to remember that he only trains the most elite lifters in the world.  How many elite strength athletes do we train compared to how many average and novice strength athletes?  Our methods should also probably vary from westside for the same reason.

[Mike Wittmer]

Andy, if you decide to use them, just "feather" the box, i.e., don't sit too hard.  I know they have been used by some, not many, weightlifters but I would avoid them.  I have seen some powerlifters in the office that sustained serious lower back injuries doing them.  Essentially, the lumbar spine is trapped between the bar and whatever you sit on.  There could be a lot of axial compression on the discs.  I know, maybe the guys were not doing them correctly, I was not there, but I don't see any possible benefit that justifies the risk.  Just my opinion. 

[Andy Dick]

Thanks for the relies.  Box squatting I am still not sure on, for the reasons that have been mentioned.

I guess the main question from me is in regular back or front squatting; if Louie's ideas with "spreading the floor", a slightly wider than shoulder width stance, or both while doing regular back squats or front squats would these be beneficial?  I used to only squat sitting back and pushing the knees out.  I had not encountered the "spreading the floor" idea until recently and was wondering if there was merit to it.  Obviously, like you all said this probably shouldnt totally replace regular olympic squatting.

[Shaun Le Conte]

Spreading the floor is a mental cue to get a wide stance powerlifter to push hard into the floor with the feet. It's the same with OL stance except that coaches will say "drive your legs into the floor". Same concept except "spreading" implies some side to side action although the only forces that really matter are in the up and down directions.

Andy it really seems that you want to do some wide stance squats, with or without boxes. Go for it if you want. I think that type of squatting can be beneficial for sports that involve changing direction. If hip and glute strength is what you want, good mornings may do the trick as well.

[Andy Dick]

Hahaha, na I was just trying to figure this out about the squats and wanted to see what you all thought.  The only thing was that many kept centering thier replies around box squatting only and I was really posing 2 questions about box squatting and regular squatting.  Plus also I read this thing by Louie Simmons where he was just talking down olympic squatting and all this and was wondering if there was a happy medium somewhere between the two.  But especially your previous post made a lot of sense to me and pretty much answers my question.  I have not had much exprience doing good mornings I think I will give them a try.  I may also play around with this whole squat buisness once I can squat again.  I just didnt know if anyone had like some actual exprience with both types of squatting and could say, "well this one is more beneficial than that one,"  or there is no carry over or whatever.  But I think the answers I have gotten here have made a lot of sense and has given me something to think about.