Topic: What is naturally possible for a man to lift?

[Jake Harrison]

220 kg clean and jerk? maybe 180 snatch?

[Paul LeDrew]

Are you really going to make the same mistake people have been making about strength for 100 years or more now? 50 yrs ago people said "no, 'x' amount of kilos could never be lifted' or 'that WR wil never be beaten'. Well, I bet theyve all been proven wrong. Dont make the same mistake. And dont be a constant finger pointer like most of American weightlifters. Just lift and do your best, no matter what.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

The tragedy of the extreme doping issue in our sport is that no one knows what can be done naturally. It clouds the issue of who is the best weightlifter to the detriment of those that cheat and those that don't. Having said that, I think the numbers Jake lists are quite low as Shane has done more and I am confident he is clean as well as others. Especially in the supers, I feel the clean limits can not be currently known. I am sure many/most that cheat do so because they feel one can't win without doing so since others are doing it. They are sacrificing their health and their own sense of accomplishment. Many that have won have later come back to regret their decisions, for health reasons and for psychological reasons.

Perhaps banning a whole team for multiple IWF/WADA positives is not the best way to handle the problem since it is possible to ban athletes that are clean, though I personally think it would be such an effective deterrent, if enforced strictly and evenly, that people would not take the risk. What is really outrageous at this time in the IWF is handing out different suspensions for different countries, different fines for different countries, willy nilly, and letting some off the hook because they are popular or "winners." There are other many other ways to go at the problem if team suspensions are not desired, to even the playing field for everyone, so that no one feels they can, should, or must take banned substances to compete. The suspension for first offense could be extended from 2 years to 4 to include at least one Olympic Games. Countries could be forced to enroll, participate, and conduct out of competition random drug testing programs in order to compete. On and on, there are many ways to address the issue. The tragedy is that none of them are being done and thus we don't know who is the best, don't know what the current limits are, and do not have a level playing field.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Another massive problem within the IWF, in my eyes, is that whenever the testing technology improves, there is a rash of positives causing the IWF embarrassment which them seems to make them want to water down the penalties dispensed for whatever reasons (political). The recent explosion of busted athletes is but one example of this trend. This should be a very good thing in the war on doping, but it isn't turning out that way since its not being fully taken advantage of to send out a message of zero tolerance. Watering down sanctions when these rash of positives occur after an improved test is introduced is weakening the deterrent effect of testing, is demoralizing to those that don't cheat, and makes many feel they can, should, or must cheat to win.

The IWF recently stated on their website that the rash of recent positives were caused by an improved test that can detect some steroids back further than ever before. This is a ridiculous statement. The new test didn't cause the positives. The people taking banned substances caused them. These opportunities to suddenly catch a large number of the cheaters should be seized upon enthusiastically, The cheaters WILL adapt to the new test and beat it, at least beat it far more often than there first exposure to it. Why let them off the hook? The only reason I can see is that the IWF simply doesn't want the sport cleaned up.

[Jake Harrison]

Having said that, I think the numbers Jake lists are quite low as Shane has done more and I am confident he is clean as well as others.quote]

I respect you, but i think that you knowing shane personally is clouding your judgement. this guy has squatted over 1000 pounds in powerlifting and c&j well over 500 pounds...and your telling me hes never touched a steroid, just hard training and protein powder.....hes still a great athlete though no doubt.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Jake,
 
You are of course entitled to have and welcome to express your opinions here and in fact it is appreciated. But, I do think its best to avoid specific, unfounded accusations. On the other hand, since I brought Shane up, I will make a few more comments on the issue. But, I hope we can move on quickly.
 
I do not really know Shane personally. We have met a few times and had one conversation on a BOD matter that in the end we ended up at odds with each other over. As to powerlifting, I agree that all that occurs is suspect within that sport. However, Shane had been in our out-of-comp testing program for years and tested to a degree that would probably astonish you. The following is from USADA website: http://www.usantidoping.org/what/stats/history.aspx
 
(Note: If an athlete has a number next to their name, it indicates that the athlete has been tested on multiple occasions. International federation tests are not included on this list.)
 
Weightlifting - 2000
Shane Hamman - 3         
Weightlifting - 2001
Shane Hamman - 15         
Weightlifting - 2002
Shane Hamman - 13         
Weightlifting - 2003
Shane Hamman - 15         
Weightlifting - 2004
Shane Hamman - 15         
Weightlifting - 2005
Shane Hamman - 2
 
I am not sure if these numbers include in competition testing or not, but since Shane consistently competed in international competitions, that would increase the numbers substantially as well as any IWF and/or WADA out of competition tests he was surely subjected to. But, from those numbers alone he was being tested more than once a month during his best lifting. Also, from the time he entered the sport, he got better fairly steadily which I believe is evidence that he didn't use anything before entering. Further, living at the US OTC, I will tell you that he was subject to stringent observation. They look for suspicious signs and activities there and will test you immediately upon any rumors or other such troubling signs. USADA is very hostile to cheaters. One example comes to mind where they tested this one "girl" so many times because they were sure she was on that it was seemingly a weekly event. That person was eventually caught using some obscure steroid, a clever trick.
 
Basically, I believe it is obvious that the current testing system is beatable, but I believe that it costs a lot of money to do so and that money is simply not in our sport in this country. While Shane made decent money for a weightlifter in America, I don't think he made enough money to beat the tests so consistently, if he even wanted to do which I do not believe he did. I believe it would have been impossible for him to have used without someone supporting the effort with massive amounts of money (designer steroids and lots of lab work) and in the end I think he would have been caught eventually anyway due to the massive numbers of tests and stringent observation.
 
Plus, there are other athletes that I know were clean from living and training with them over a period of years that did the original numbers you mentioned.
 
Thanks.

[Nick Albert]

is there any national record holders or hall-of-famers that you know or suspect took some alternative help?

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

s there any national record holders or hall-of-famers that you know or suspect took some alternative help?

Of course, there are many that were either busted or admitted it. Some of our American records were done before there even was drug testing. Some of the hall of famers, if you mean those on our site, are currently suspended for doping busts (Mutlu for example). Others, including Americans in the past, have been busted. Our sport is plagued with this problem.