Topic: The Relative Value of Assistance Exercises for Weightlifting

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Dear Forum,

I was hoping to have a discussion on some thoughts I have regarding determining the relative value of various assistance exercises for the sport of weightlifting. Thanks in advance for your feedback.

Determining the relative value of assistance exercises for weightlifting

[Mike Wittmer]

Everyone, good stuff and it all makes sense.

However, I do question some of this research.  I guess I come from the lies, damm lies and statistics camp.

For example, when my son was at the OTC they (Stone, et al) were doing some "research" which involved these guys pulling on a fixed bar, like an isometric.  Stone told him that he was weak and that Doreen Heldt has more "power" than he.  Now, at the time Jeff was able to front squat 220 and we all know how that compares to what others do.  I wonder what he was trying to prove.

Regarding dead lifts, he does not do them.  He has, but not much.  Curt White never did them, I did them prior to training with Curt.  I found that all dead lifts did for me was make me good at pulling heavy weights....slowly.  Now, that is not to say that I would not use them in some cases, but in general, I don't think they have a major place in our training programs.

[Nick Albert]

this is a very interesting article you have put together. I do have a couple questions.

So the squat does or does not help the pull of the clean or snatch? is it more specific to one of them? and if it is effective...how much...is it better to apply pulls more if the pull is my problem or squats more?

My coach has me train at about 5 kg more than our max. ( say i max 100 kg he would have me make my % of of 105) is this better than going off of a daily max or a rolling max(which i dont know what that is, just heard off it)

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

So the squat does or does not help the pull of the clean or snatch? is it more specific to one of them?

Yes, the squat helps the pull in my opinion. And, yes, there is a difference in the relationship between squats and snatch and squats and cleans. But, its not significant. The correlation between front and back squats is well over .9 for both the snatch and clean and jerk.

is it better to apply pulls more if the pull is my problem or squats more?

I would say that depends. If one has very strong squats and very poor technique, one should focus on pulling technique. If the pull technique is good and the squats are weak, its time to step up the squatting.

[Chronis Trastogiannos]

First of all thanks Chris for this very interesting article!

tand if it is effective...how much...is it better to apply pulls more if the pull is my problem or squats more?

When you say problem what do you mean?
Problem of technique or not enough strong pull that makes the bar falling in front of you?

If the problem is technique my answer is neither of them. You can try snatch or clean from boxes. Power snatch or clean. Also you can combine making one snatch from floor two from above the knees and add variety of exercises to your training.

If the problem is psychological factors that prevent to reach optimal technique then pulls is the best exercise because you pull more load than competitive lifts and that increase the confidence of the athlete not to be afraid of the load and to pull high enough.

If the problem is that the athlete has not power to pull high enough so as the bar to reach the appropriate position Chris gave the answer.

[Nick Albert]

i think my problem is phycological. at meets i never hesitate to get under cus im so pumped. but in training when teh weight gets heavy for me. i tend to pull and not drop.

[Gabriel Grinstead]

Interesting research.  The only problem is that the data might not be that credable.  There are studies upon studies that seem to contradict another.  But that is another story altogether.

I workout with quite a few power lifters and they are not slow by any means.  They dead lift very fast! I used to think they were slow, but upon watching their sport and actually watching them train, I have learned that they are far more capable than their weightlifting brethern give them credit for.

But in any case, there has been research on the types of muscle fibers that are produced based on ones training.  Some evidence I have read suggested that one can train for speed and have their muscles respond and assemble accordingly or one can train for slow ultimate strength.

Whether that research is correct or not, not many people really know.  The body is pretty amazing and what we thought was fact yesterday was simply myth.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Gabriel,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but clearly deadlifts are slow compared to the snatch and clean and jerk, which is what I was comparing it to. I love them and I love powerlifting, raw powerlifting anyway.