Topic: The Relative Value of Assistance Exercises for Weightlifting

[Paul LaDuke]

Andy said  "This is based on the force/velocity relationship, which tells us that we can move lighter intensities faster than heavier intensities."


Andy,

Your statement is true but I am not sure that the force/velocity curve applies that much to the classic lifts.  For example, I did a personal study of my bar speed in the snatch starting at 25 kgs under my max and performed about 6 lifts adding 5 kgs each rep.  My study showed me the average velocity and my peak velocity was very similar each time (see the results below).  There is 1 anomoly at 98% with a higher peak velocity, not sure why.


165# Snatch Analysis (77% of Max)
·   Height of Pull = 125cm in 1.13 sec
·   Average Velocity = 1.1 m/s
·   Peak Velocity = 1.97m/s @ 84cm height

185# Snatch Analysis (86% of Max)
·   Height of Pull = 129cm in 1.07 sec
·   Average Velocity = 1.20 m/s
·   Peak Velocity = 2.13m/s @ 105cm height

195# Snatch Analysis (91% of Max)
·   Height of Pull = 120cm in 1.07 sec
·   Average Velocity = 1.13 m/s
·   Peak Velocity = 2.09m/s @ 90cm

205# Snatch Analysis (95% of Max)
·   Height of Pull = 123cm in 1.07 sec
·   Average Velocity = 1.15 m/s
·   Peak Velocity = 2.08m/s @ 95cm

210# Snatch Analysis (98% of Max)
·   Height of Pull = 130cm in 1.1 sec
·   Average Velocity = 1.18 m/s
·   Peak Velocity = 2.47m/s @ 94 cm

215# Snatch Analysis (100% of Max)
·   Height of Pull = 123cm in 1.04 sec
·   Average Velocity = 1.19 m/s
·   Peak Velocity = 2.13 m/s @ 90cm


My theory is that an accomplished lifter will perform the lift at a certain speed no matter the weight if it is less than the lifter's max.  Once the max is reached, the lifter can no longer perform the lift at the desire velocity and so failure occurs.  Weight lifting is not like the sport of powerlifting where bar speed gradually reaches 0 ft/sec as the weight gets heavier.

[Matt Erdman]

So pretty much from all this is that the clean and snatch pull and high pull variations should be removed altogether from training.  That we pretty much should only train in clean and jerk, snatch and squat?  What of my previous question on the jump shrug, so should that be removed also?  I am by no means even close to an expert but from all this that I have read it seems that all we should do is those three lifts, unless there is something form wise that needs to be corrected.  For me I have no coach so what pretty much occurs is that I do everything on my own.  So I have no way to determine correct form so including or excluding these exercises on my part are extremely had to determine.  Only for others I am coaching can I see the ability to do so.

I don't think Chris wants to exclude the pulls. Charniga is against them. The main point is to be considerate of bar speed. 80% is generally a good weight for power versions. If your snatch max is 100, then 75-85 would be a good working weight for power snatches. I would prefer that approach personally. What you were saying about a supra-maximal snatch pull making the actual snatch seem lighter never worked for me.

However, in general, many training programs are coming down to mostly classic exercises and squats.

[Andy Dick]

There is 1 anomoly at 98% with a higher peak velocity, not sure why.

That is just cause you are a beast!!!

Hmm very good, this gives me something to think about.  Also if this is the case why is no one ever really told about this?  When I was taking my USAW it was never really mentioned that care should be given in doing pulls because of this.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

So pretty much from all this is that the clean and snatch pull and high pull variations should be removed altogether from training.  That we pretty much should only train in clean and jerk, snatch and squat?

No, nothing in the article would support such a conclusion. In fact, the evidence that overload can be beneficial to power development would indicate that pulls could have some benefit. I believe pulls are very important for beginners and intermediate lifters.

For me I have no coach so what pretty much occurs is that I do everything on my own.  So I have no way to determine correct form so including or excluding these exercises on my part are extremely had to determine.  Only for others I am coaching can I see the ability to do so.

Its always a tough situation to coach yourself, for anyone. I would suggest posting video of yourself for technique help. And, perhaps the next article I am writing to follow up on some thoughts in this one that were not addressed and/or which naturally lead to other questions will be of interest, particularly in regard to squats and power expression.

Cheers

[Ryan Lapadat]

But here is the meat of the question.  My thinking on pulls was this: even though there is a loss in speed in the pull, wouldn’t there be a carry over to weightlifting because one should be able to pull more weight than with the oly lifts?  Thus increasing this would make the pull phase feel easier since the oly lift will be at a lower percentage of the actual lift.  This would allow the lifter to then accelerate the weight more in the pull to get more momentum on it, thus giving him more time to get under the bar and catch it.

That is exactly what I was thinking.

It is the same with every thing you do. Back in the day I would max out on the bench press at 275 pounds, and it was a struggle to get it up, slow and hard. Now I max out over 300 pounds, and repping 275 pounds is fast and the form is perfect cause the weight is lighter for me to lift. The same thing goes for all exercises really. If you arm curl a weight that is heavy for you, you will struggle and it will be slow and hard. If you get stronger, that same weight goes up faster and it will take a heavier weight to slow you down.

I think mixing up training could help for sure. Getting power to help make the lifts seem lighter, and working technique and speed to use the power.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

It is romantic to think that an athlete can be a jack of all trades, just be bull strong and therefore lightning fast at the same time. But, the research mentioned in the article indicates that the adaptations of the muscle and other systems involved are different for different stimulae. Specialization narrows focus. Improvements in one area are often negatives in others.