Topic: The Relative Value of Assistance Exercises for Weightlifting

[Paul LaDuke]

Click here for Bud Charniga's article from a few years ago on the relative value of pulling exercises.  His conclusion is that pulling exercises produce bad habits and lack specificity to the sport.

My opinion on pulling exercises is that I agree with both Chris and Bud based on the specificity principle.  Chris, it seems your basing your pulling exercises on using 80% of your 1 RM.  Based on the research that you cite, 80% intensity produces the highest power production.   If you use 80% for 3-5 sets of 4-6 reps, you should see improvement in power production and bar speed.  This is utilizing the specificity principle.  A lifter will be tempted to use higher intensities (because they can, and heavier is better - right?) but lose the bar speed and suffer form issues.  

Charniga's article studies pulling intensities at 90-120%.  This is why his conclusion is that pulling exercises are not good for weightlifting.  Pulls at this higher intensity lose their specificity (form and speed) to the sport of weightlifting.  Pulls at this intensity are slower and the form used is different.  Lifters who use heavy pulls are using an exercise that use a different movement pattern at slower speeds.  Armed with this research and conclusions from them, it is clear that pulls at intensities of 90-120% of 1RM lose specificity.

So I agree with Charniga, high relative intensity pulls lack the speed and form specificity for weightlifting and should not be used.  But I also agree with Chris that pulls can be used at 80% intensity since this intensity should provide the overload, speed and form specificity desired to improve a lifter's max.

It must also be noted that the pull is only half the lift.  The successful lift must be caught.  Most unsuccesful lifts are not missed because of poor pull height.  They are missed because of a missed catch.  The bar may be too far way from the body to be caught, or the lifter may lack the speed to get under the bar, etc.  The point is, the successful lifter must focus on the entire lift without breaking it down into a bunch of little lifts that get put back together a few weeks before competiton.  My belief is that you perform the full movements first and then perform indicated supplemental exercises (i.e. snatch pull, front squat, push press, etc.) to improve the weakest part of the lift.

[Jack Dluzen]

I AGREE WITH  CHRIS AND PAUL  , WITH  CHRIS IS, IF YOUR AT A STICKING POINT IN CLEANS OR SNATCHES ...  GO TO THE  SOMEWAT HEAVY PULLS ,  I ALSO  BELEIVE IN TRAINING  BY THE PERCENTAGES ... FROM 75% TO  85% OF MAX PESULTS .. IN DIFFERENT   PULL MOVEMENTS AND SQUATS , BUD CHARNIGAS ARTICLES IS GOOD ... AND I AGREE  AND TRAIN TO THAT SOME WAT ... ALSO  GOOD ARTICLES ARE ON  ( DEEPSQUATER.COM)  ON THE STRENTH LIST  ARCHIVE  ARTICLES....  BY LOUIE SIMMONS , ( LOUIE SIMMONS 2ND OPINON) AND  ( PERCETAGE TRAING WHAT IT REALLY IS ) B BY LOUIE SIMMONS ,   I ACTUALLY  USE A BIT OF ALL THREE , METHODS , BUT MAINLY STICK TO THE PERCENTAGE TRAINING ,   ANOTHER GOOD FOOD FOR THOUGHT IS ...( TRAINING  BY THE PERRCENTS)  ON  WWW. LIFTTHIS.COM/PERCETAGE.HTM    AND  NO IM NOT A LOUIE SIMMONS  PERSON ...  I JUST TRY TO READ ALL ASPECTS [/b] CHRIS , GET THAT RECORD GOOD LUCK!

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

So I agree with Charniga, high relative intensity pulls lack the speed and form specificity for weightlifting and should not be used. But I also agree with Chris that pulls can be used at 80% intensity since this intensity should provide the overload, speed and form specificity desired to improve a lifter's max.

Just to be clear, I don't advocate doing pulls only at about 80%. I just believe that straying too far from 80% will jeopardize the speed specificity of the movement and minimize its value. I believe there is value to doing pulls anywhere from 70-110%, but much heavier than that and they become almost completely useless in most situations, in my opinion, and deadlifts fall way outside that range. I also tend to think the primary value of pulls is for developing lifters and not really so much for mature lifters, unless those lifters are out of shape and need conditioning. A mature, in shape lifter, I think would benefit little from pulls overall. A master's lifter struggling with their body and the impacts necessary from doing constant lifts is, of course, an exception.

Jack- Thanks.

[Jack Dluzen]

chris sorry  for the misunderstanding, about pull percetages ...  you and i  did dicuss and you also advocated   doing pulls up to 110%  :) i do  heavy pulls and squats  also , but as  a older master lifter .. every thing has its place ... as i also use the % to  do diff  variations , of the lifts etc. ..  i think  both  ways have a  usefull  time and place in ones training ...             ( now go there and get that cj record !)

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

I rewrote this post in to a little article. Cheers

Determining the relative value of assistance exercises for weightlifting

[Andy Dick]

Ok, here is my question and my thinking on pulls and please explain this to me because I have also currently been playing with the idea of taking them out of my programs.  But first let me ask if I could get the link to the second part of Bud Charniga's article.  The link is to the first part and I would please like to read his conclusion.

I also liked this article it was good stuff.  I also liked the part on individualization since this part is really important.  I know it was mentioned that 80% was the best for producing optimal power, but remember this is an average based on a study.  It does not always apply to everyone.  When I was doing my internship we had the athletes lift with tendo units from 40-100% to figure out at which percentage they were the most powerful.  So some ended up being a little less than 80% and some a little more.

But here is the meat of the question.  My thinking on pulls was this: even though there is a loss in speed in the pull, wouldn’t there be a carry over to weightlifting because one should be able to pull more weight than with the oly lifts?  Thus increasing this would make the pull phase feel easier since the oly lift will be at a lower percentage of the actual lift.  This would allow the lifter to then accelerate the weight more in the pull to get more momentum on it, thus giving him more time to get under the bar and catch it.

This is based on the force/velocity relationship, which tells us that we can move lighter intensities faster than heavier intensities.  Thus by making the lifter stronger in the pull they should have the ability to pull the weight with more power.  When I train with this exercise I always try to pull as fast as possible always trying to work on the speed portion of the lift.

Keep in mind to that the pull is an assistance exercise so a majority of the time is already spent on the specifity of the lifts by accomplishing the actual lifts.  Also, a great deal of time is spent on the specifity of speed since that is also being worked on while working the lifts.

I also read an article by Stone where he talked about on each lift in a program to drop the percentage to 45-55% of the max and accomplishing a set as fast as possible to work on speed.  This would make sense especially combined with what was stated in the assistance exercise article where it said that training at high speed with lower intensity was found to improve speed at heavier loads.

So when you have the majority of your time on the actual oly lifts to improve specifity of form and speed.  Then when you add the speed set at the end of each set to continue working on speed.  That when you add the pulls in to work on maximal strength in the pull that it evens itself out since already the majority of the time spent is on specifity of the actual lift form and on speed.

One thing I was taught in grad school was that, based on the force/velocity relationship, you have to be strong to move things fast.  Like stated earlier you will have the ability to move 80% of your 1RM faster than 100% of your 1RM.  So if my 1RM is 100lbs I can lift 80lbs faster.  So when I get my 1RM up to 200lbs I will also be able to then move 100lbs fast.  Even Wilmore/Costill, in their book that was quoted in the assistance exercise article, state in their book that “speed is a more innate quality that changes little with training.  Thus, power is increased almost exclusively in strength.”  Which lends merit to increasing the strength in the pull.

Arthur Dreschler in his book The Weightlifting Encyclopedia also talks about how the pulls are less taxing on the nervous system.  This would also give credit to it as an assistance exercise because strength can still be worked of even after the nervous system is taxed following work on the Olympic lifts, or to even be accomplished on a recovery type day.  Remember I am advocating a great deal more time spent on the oly lifts for specifity reasons and then to a lesser extent work on the assistance lifts.

For argument’s sake we remove pulls (when I say pulls I mostly mean the high pull) from the program would that mean there is also no merit from the jump shrug.  Which I usually use for working on producing explosive speed.  It seems that the crux of the argument against the pulls is that it is only a partial form of the lift but doesn’t it still have its place.  It was said in Bud’s article that the squat under is what makes or breaks the lift.  If this is the case how can you work that under load?  With and hang snatch or snatch off the blocks?  Isn’t that still a partial lift movement as well as more taxing on the nervous system as opposed to the pull?  To me it seems like from the posts that many feel there is no need for the pull except to work on form problems.  We can’t shake the specifity of doing the actual oly lifts because that is paramount; but don’t pulls still have their place aside from just form work?

Also, a minor question on the intensities for the pulls for those that say they still do them.  Do you use 80% of like your snatch max for the snatch pull or 80% of your snatch pull max.  Since, I said I am able to pull more than my oly lift load.

[Chris Ⓐ LeRoux]

Andy,

The link to part two is at the bottom of the part one article, before the references.

I know it was mentioned that 80% was the best for producing optimal power, but remember this is an average based on a study.

Yes, it is an average based on a couple/few different studies. It also refers to a % with specific exercises and this could vary with others. However, it does appear that this is around the load where greatest power is expressed in power based weightlifting exercises, according to all the studies I have seen so far.

But here is the meat of the question.  My thinking on pulls was this: even though there is a loss in speed in the pull, wouldn’t there be a carry over to weightlifting because one should be able to pull more weight than with the oly lifts?  Thus increasing this would make the pull phase feel easier since the oly lift will be at a lower percentage of the actual lift.  This would allow the lifter to then accelerate the weight more in the pull to get more momentum on it, thus giving him more time to get under the bar and catch it.

This is based on the force/velocity relationship, which tells us that we can move lighter intensities faster than heavier intensities.  Thus by making the lifter stronger in the pull they should have the ability to pull the weight with more power.

Yes, the overload possible with pulls can be beneficial for power development by improving force capabilities. But, strength gains are specific to the speed at which they are developed. So, if you get too heavy and slow in your pulls, this strength will not carry over to faster velocities. It can even compromise one's ability to express power.

Cheers

[Andy Dick]

So pretty much from all this is that the clean and snatch pull and high pull variations should be removed altogether from training.  That we pretty much should only train in clean and jerk, snatch and squat?  What of my previous question on the jump shrug, so should that be removed also?  I am by no means even close to an expert but from all this that I have read it seems that all we should do is those three lifts, unless there is something form wise that needs to be corrected.  For me I have no coach so what pretty much occurs is that I do everything on my own.  So I have no way to determine correct form so including or excluding these exercises on my part are extremely had to determine.  Only for others I am coaching can I see the ability to do so.